Episode 143 - Patreon Selects: Fun With the Psychology Today Profile Generator

Life can be hard at times. Do you want to feel more visible and important in your relationships? Are you curious about why every Psychology Today profile looks the same? We get silly with the incredible Therapist Generator and learn all about treating sunroof addition with truckload therapy and registered turtleneck therapy. The therapist profiles are fake, but our desire to meet you where you are on your journey is very real.

Thank you for listening. To support the show and receive access to regular bonus episodes, check out the Very Bad Therapy Patreon community. Today’s episode is sponsored by Sentio Counseling Center – high-quality, low-fee online therapy in California with immediate availability for new clients.

Introduction: 0:00 – 26:05

Part One: 26:05 – 1:14:55

Part Two: 1:14:55 – 1:17:35

Show Notes:

• Therapist Generator

• Kaylen Dwyer: Twitter

• This Person Does Not Exist

• Go open: A plea for transparency in psychotherapy

• Talking more about talking cures: cognitive behavioural therapy and informed counsent

• Informed Consent in Psychotherapy: Implications of Evidence-Based Practice

• Evidence-Based Practice and Psychological Treatments: The Imperatives of Informed Consent

• Informed consent for psychotherapy: still not routine

• Transcript

  Carrie Wiita [00:00:00]:

  Welcome to very bad therapy. A closer look at what goes wrong in the counseling room and how it could go better as told by the clients who survived.

  Ben Fineman [00:00:09]:

  From Los Angeles, I'm Carolyn Ouida. And I'm Ben Feynman legally encouraged to say that this podcast does not constitute therapeutic advice. But it will get interesting. let's get started. Well, Carrie. So over a year ago, I think this was August of 2022. You and I discovered something life changing. And this was the psychology today profile generator, and that is what we're gonna re air is our journey through fake psychology today profiles.

  Carrie Wiita [00:00:47]:

  That was the best. Yeah. I I really enjoyed it, and I

  Carrie Wiita [00:00:51]:

  there's there's endless humor to be found in psychology today profiles. Also endless agony, I feel like it's one of the things that people agonize. Therapies agonize the most over. Do you feel endless agony?

  Ben Fineman [00:01:02]:

  Do you do you feel

  Carrie Wiita [00:01:04]:

  I see what you did there. Uh-huh.

  Ben Fineman [00:01:06]:

  I can I can walk this journey with you. I can hold space.

  Carrie Wiita [00:01:11]:

  I use empirically supported treatments. I bet you do. I bet you do.

  Ben Fineman [00:01:16]:

  It's I'm so glad we did an episode about psychology today because these profiles are and They're just they're they're so much.

  Carrie Wiita [00:01:23]:

  They are so much. And I it it sucks because I think that, like, on the one he had a lot of a lot of private practice therapists to really eye on psychology today for clients for their caseloads. And others, like, I think feel like I should do that, and I don't know what to write and blah blah blah. It's just it's like a whole thing.

  Ben Fineman [00:01:43]:

  And then you get people coming in being like, I can help you write this. Check out my coaching business. -- to help you although I'd be willing to bet those coaching businesses are essentially out of luck now that chat GBT exists. Because do you really need to pay somebody, like, $500 to teach you how to write a psychology's day profile when you can just go to chat to GBT and say, write me a psychology's day

  Carrie Wiita [00:02:05]:

  I okay. I would so here's the thing. I have I have a lot of conflicting feelings about it. Because, yeah, there are a bunch of people and, like, colleagues of mine, I fully respect and and know great things about marketing who offer this service. Right? And a lot of times, it comes with a very specific formula, right, of, like, how to write the, like, perfect psychology today profile. And I think for some people, it's, like, massively success full, like, really, like, really, really helpful guidance. And then I think others get frustrated because it comes with a lot of, like, certainties that, like, here's how you do it. And then they do it that way, and then it doesn't quite have the effect that they were hoping it would have, and it just falls flat. And they feel like they've invested in something that wasn't worth it, and it's just it's sad. But I I think the problem with psychology today, right, has been what I have struggled with since I first started researching, like, marketing therapists is I've been look at like, everyone like, not everyone. A lot of people have these, like, definitive answers of, like, here's how you write, a kick ass psychology today profile. Right? Mhmm. And they're they're very definitive, and I've been so curious. Like, I wanna know, like, how how like, how did you find that out? Like, where did you get that information? What studies are you reading that I haven't been able to find? Ah. And it turns out turns out, it you know, for better or worse based on anecdotal personal experience. Right? Usually, how they wrote their own profile, it worked, and they teach other people. And some of those people have success, and so it's like, hello. It works. Look at that. Which is I honestly, in the absence of, like, real data, like, is the best we've got? Right? So, you know, my frustration has been that it's not based on anything. On on on the real yeah. The real data. The pure call. It's not. Right? And you know why? Because no one has access to the data. No one has access to the data except for psychology today. except for mental health match. Right? These are privately owned companies. And the reality is you know they have the data. They I've tried to get it. I've tried to I've tried to pose as a therapist. I try to be a student writing a thesis. I've tried all these different emails and presentations to try to say, will you please either, number 1, can you give me any data to look at? Number 2, can you is that have you written a blog or anything anywhere that tells us what works in a in a therapist directory profile? Wow. Boy, would that be valuable? Well, it would be super valuable to have that information. It would be very valuable for therapists. But the thing that you have to remember is, like, I'm not gonna get into it. But bottom line, they have this data, and these these companies have enormous data sets. They genuinely have big data But let's talk about psychology today. Let's isolate them. Right? This company has big data on what works for these profiles. What converts? and they aren't telling anybody, right, which is really frustrating. I don't genuinely I don't understand, like, why aren't they holding workshops on, like, Here's what works in your psychology today profile. You think it would help get the more therapists to buy into the platform. Right?

  Ben Fineman [00:05:09]:

  I don't know. I mean, my my thought goes to I read a book. Gosh. What was it called? This is, like, 7 or 8 years ago. by the founder of OkCupid, I think it was, or Matt? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. about everything learned behind the scenes from all the data. Yeah. And it was so compelling, but you also very quickly realized why they couldn't hold workshops on this because it was, like, almost all straight men are looking for twenty year old women Oh, what? The data shows, like, a huge skew, like, a racist bias against specifically black women, and you realize, like, you can't go public with this and not have it be a huge controversy. And so the book was kind of, in some ways, being transparent about all the things really can't integrate into it like a match.com or OkCupid business plan. I don't know if that would be the case with psychology today or if they would have that level of sophistication

  Carrie Wiita [00:05:59]:

  to extract this information and then make, like, big decisions around how to incorporate it, but I'd be willing to bet that there are some very Unpleasant realities when you look at what clients are choosing which therapists. Oh, Ben. I'm certain of it. And you know what? I'm now that you think you oh my god. You're just, like, huge light bulb. Okay. So now I know that you're right, that that's exactly what's going on. They probably have very hard data on why psychology today is useful and not useful for others. -- perpetuate some very discriminatory realities about her. It doesn't even it doesn't even matter. The discrimination doesn't even matter. It just means that, like, say just hypothetically that they found that, like, everyone all clients are looking for social workers, and they don't care about psychologists or marriage and family therapists or whatever. If psychology today was open about that, how does psychology today make their money? It's free for clients. They have to have therapist paying. All the therapists -- Yes. -- who want to use their product and the data they have will undermine that goal. they have to convince every therapist that this is a very useful tool, could be for them. Right? So so that's why that's why. So they won't share. They won't tell you anything. Right? And and that, boy, that makes a lot of sense. So in lieu of actually knowing, all you can do is kind of make educated guesses based on the decisions that psychology today is making. Right? because they want to they they serve 2 masters. They really do. On the one hand, they they they make money because therapists have paid to be on the platform to advertise their services. That's that's their one master is all the therapists who will pay them. But they pay them because psychology today is access to clients. So they also have to make this a valuable resource for clients in order to get clients to trust psychology today rise to the top of the Google search results,

  Ben Fineman [00:07:54]:

  You think, like, higher ups from psychology today are going to come across this episode, or are we just 2 small potatoes for them to care, or do they not care about these these public inquiries into their methods.

  Carrie Wiita [00:08:06]:

  I it's a big enough company that I think there's definitely somebody in marketing monitoring mentions. And, previously, I would have said, I'm not sure if they have somebody who's gonna listen to a whole podcast episode, but we now post transcripts of the episode online. So now it's totally possible that they've got somebody who's going through and looking at shit like that. So it's possible. Good luck reading that transcript with our cackling laughter when we start to read through these generated profiles. Is that fun psychology today? So all of this is say. I wanna tell people I want I want all therapists now because this has come up a lot with my marketing clients. And I feel like I have some unique insights into what might possibly be going on with the psychology today profile. What you should know about it and particularly things about the video. So I would just wanna tell everyone because I feel like we shouldn't gatekeep. So basically, I think that we can use the choices that psychology today makes and interpret that, like, it is it is by virtue of those choices, it's telling us what is successful on psychology today based on their huge datasets. So I recently, they just did a major layout shift. They changed the whole layout of how information is presented on psychology today profile picture. And so I think why they did that is because they have information that demonstrates this is the information consumers use to make an instant decision. And so, essentially, what it what has changed is when you click you get a, you know, search results of therapists and you click on the profile and their profile opens. Right? That's called, like, above the fold is newspaper term. So whatever before you start scrolling, So whatever is on that page. I believe psychology today has data that shows. The stuff that's on that page before people start scrolling is the most important information for consumers when making a decision. It will push them on the journey or not. You're grinning again.

  Ben Fineman [00:10:09]:

  So this episode will be sponsored by Cynthia Counseling Center, Carrie, where I work as a company director, and we're not on psychology today. But we're on Open Path Collective, which is directory for low fee therapy centers because our fees started $30, and now we don't have to do the support pitch because I've already done it. Great. Great. That's called organic, but -- Yep. -- organic influence our marketing. But we weren't doing great with referrals through our open path collective listing. Oh, yeah. And so Tony, our executive director had this idea because he just got a really cute puppy for his daughter. Yeah. He said, let's change the profile picture from instead of our little logo to the puppy. Yeah. And people have started contacting us left and right -- Uh-huh. -- because we put a puppy as our as our picture instead of a logo or, like, a grid of 16 faces or counselors. Yep. I thought the idea was hilarious. and I was stunned at how effective it was. So perhaps to Tony, my boss, because Oh, did you and I talk about this, or did Tony and I talk about this? I don't know if I've told you about this, but it's been a wild It's been a wild success since -- Tony emailed me and asked me about this, and I told him, do it. Yeah. Here's why. I have one piece of data, one

  Carrie Wiita [00:11:19]:

  piece of actual data I've been able to come across from a therapy directory company. And it was in a very old podcast interview with Jeff Gunther of therapy done back before he sold therapy done because he'd sold that recently in the past year or so. But back when it was his baby and he was building it. He did an interview with some podcast. I can't remember who it was. But he was sharing conclusions based on data he had gathered on therapy then. And he said that one of the major conclusions was that pictures of therapists, like the profile pictures Profiles where the profile picture had a dog in it converted way higher -- Wow. -- than not a dog. It was one of it's one of the only data points I had. And so that is what I I I cited it in my thesis. I tell people, like, everywhere. Like, yes. Use a dog in the picture. It's is it useful? I don't know. Exclusively dog. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. -- human beings to be found. Just a picture of a cute dog. And isn't that fascinating? Isn't that absolutely amazing. I know. I love it. So that is that is the one piece of data. I I yeah. I told I remember having this conversation. I couldn't remember if it was with you or or Tony, must have been Tony over email. Anyway so, yeah, do that. Include a picture of a dog if you got one. Okay. But so so psychology today is using their data to make this the best product they can. And I think when they're to generate the most like, click throughs for therapists, like, client click throughs. I think they've optimized now the profile. The layout must now be optimized. Right? And what I think it means long story short is that what is important to consumers is in the top of this profile, the way therapy psychology today has has laid it out, that's what's important. And then you'll notice that you start scrolling down the page, and you can scroll forever and find all of the other information that you can add into your profile, none of it is important to the consumer when making a decision. Some of it a lot of it is important for showing up in search results. For example, like, The very bottom of the page of the scroll now is location.

  Ben Fineman [00:13:27]:

  And so it says nearby areas, your ZIP codes, neighborhoods, counties, These are all important for search results, so it's gotta be on the listing. The irony of this is that all those businesses that, like, sold product of we will help you write the best profile possible. Yeah. They it from my recollection, they, at least, they used to when I was looking at them, they exclusively focused on the content of the profile. It will help you write the best first section and say and they really didn't focus much on the picture. And what you're saying is they were telling you how to optimize something that was almost irrelevant, and they ignored the most important, like, above the fold part.

  Carrie Wiita [00:14:00]:

  Well, sort of. So before this layout change, what was at the top, what was first was, like, all the three paragraphs of text that you get. Right? And then there were all these other things that are just, like, enter information. What's your address? What's your phone number? Do you accept insurance? You know? These are not a lot of coaching goes into that. Right? you can a very common coaching piece of advice is to wherever you are, obviously, wherever your office is located, include information, but then also add, like, nearby ZIP codes or other neighborhoods if you wanna, like, attract more higher paying clients, pick include ZIP codes that are richer neighborhoods, if you're having a hard time surfacing because you live in a major metro area, throw in some ZIP codes, especially if you're doing telehealth, throw in some codes for very rural areas where there's not a lot of therapists because then there if somebody's searching for that ZIP code, there's a higher chance you'll show up in the search results, blah blah blah. Yeah. So you can do, like, little tips and tricks like that. But, yeah, they used to think, I think. And, you know, I don't this is why it's it's anecdotal evidence. There's it's the I don't have a problem with it because there's not a lot to go off of, but, like, these folks who are giving you advice, like, they are not it it's based on what worked for them and what they it's a personal opinion. And that's why I I hate doing that because, like, I don't my opinion doesn't matter. If there's one thing that, like, particularly the first impressions literature is clear about, one opinion doesn't matter. It's aggregate. Right? And the only way you get aggregate information is from big data. And so the only person who has that is psychology today that's why I say, let's listen to psychology today above and beyond anybody else. And they just made these huge changes to layout that I think give us a very clear idea of what is important. And so what I think is very important. They've they've shown us. They've shown their cards of, like, what it is that people take into account when they make a decision about a therapist. It's the the search results show the picture of the name, the title, I believe, and maybe, like, a pull quote, I think, about what they what they specialize in or something. I I tell my marketing clients, like, don't stressed too much about the search results. Like, it yes. You're I think your headshot is extremely important, obviously. It's a whole other episode. But it's you can't you Psychology today has their own algorithm about how people show up in the search results. And, suspiciously, I think that peep I think that they have a a vested interest in surfacing therapists who are about to need to renew their accounts because if you I think this happens from what a lot of people say is they sign up for psychology today. They get a bunch of people, a bunch of inquiries right away, and then all of a sudden, it just, like, kinda drops and then they're about to cancel it. And then all of a sudden, they get another one, and they're like, oh, I guess I have to keep it. I'm pretty sure that psychology today that's part of their algorithm, right, is, like, if you're about to if you need to renew your thing and there's a possibility you might decide to cancel your account because it's not worth the money, They're gonna, like, goose your ratings a little bit in the in the search results. So, essentially, they have complete control of the search results. You can't do anything about it, so don't worry too much about the search results. What you wanna worry about is what is on your psychology today profile once somebody does click over. I I obviously think your headshot is the one thing you can control in the in the search results. So whatever. But, anyway so in the new layout, there's the name. There's the title. which we have talked about in a different a different episode that there is one study that I've read about how, like, how you describe title is actually important to consumers. So if you can write it out in the you have to do, like, LCSW but you can write it out in the text if you want to. But so they've got the contact number, the call to action. Right? So your phone number and the button to email They've got my practice at a glance, which is where are you? Are you doing telehealth or in person? They have a I specialize in this thing. how much you charge and whether what format, individual couples, whatever. And before you start scrolling, if you've included pictures and video, what you've got is at the at the again, in the top, you see one paragraph. You know, you get, like, 3 paragraphs of text. Right? but you see if you include pictures and video on your in your profile, only see the first paragraph of text. And then it jumps straight to you with a video in the pictures. and the video is the first thing in the the visual block that you see. So what this tells me is clients are they have a variety of things that are a priority to them. Right? Some clients are looking for only a psychologist, only a doctor. So that's information that's up there. Some people are only looking for telehealth or only looking in person, so that's a there. Some people are looking for couples counseling. So the format is up there. The modality is up there. But then when it comes down to picking, like, which therapist, after that. All that matters is the first paragraph and the pictures and video. They've decided that Pictures and video are prioritized by consumers above the rest of the text. So they don't what they're basically showing here is that Consumers don't read the whole thing and then, like, make a real decision about whether they resonate it. The decision is made by the end of the first paragraph. Right? And I would argue probably the decision is made by the end of the first or second sentence in the first paragraph. And the video is interesting because that's a new thing that they rolled out. And they only have, like, 18 to 20 seconds, I believe, is the limit. So I used to be an actor, and I'm still to some extent do commercial auditioning. So, like, commercial acting is its own thing. And it is the whole point of doing an audition for a commercial is, like, you either are or aren't what they're looking for instantly. And so you know that, like, you book the audition pretty much if you walk in the room, and they're like, this is who we thought this person is. because commercials are so short. You know? They need to instantly know who you are from, like, this instant kind of first impression. So a lot of times, commercial additions, like, when they watch them back, they don't even listen to the sound, and they don't watch the whole thing. They don't they don't really care what like, if you if you can manage the action and the words in the spot, then, like, great. Like, that's the bare minimum. But, really, it's like, from the split second of watching you be a human on screen, that's where the decision is made. But this is an 18 to 22nd video. Guys, therapists, they are not looking for you to talk about like, they don't care consumers don't care what you're saying in that video. They only care as long as when they push play, what is happening in that video. Like and I think before they push play, like, there's a freeze frame. I think the freeze frame is probably the most important part of the whole video. You need that freeze frame to look inviting and professional. Whatever your brand is, it needs to be that at the freeze frame. And then as soon as you push play, it's literally they're just judging your vibe, your voice, Like, ever like, whatever everything that the video connotes, that's what's being judged. It so don't stress too much about what you're saying. You wanna say, like, one sentence that is in line with what is written in the text of your of your profile.

  Ben Fineman [00:21:26]:

  Hold a dog. But it's

  Carrie Wiita [00:21:27]:

  yeah. And a dog, like, include include your dog. But it's it's all about the energy and the vibe. Like, that's what that tells me that it's an 18 to 22nd video. It's just the vibe. I just want people to know that, like, that's probably what's important Do not agonize over the 3 paragraphs and everything, like, that you're saying and, like, the journey and, like, whatever. You I I don't know. I talk about this way more in-depth with my marketing clients. So hit me up if you want, like, more information. But I when it comes to the video, you need to be super confident. You need to be very quick they know what you're gonna say ahead of time, memorize it so that you're not, like, confused or uncertain because that comes across really bad on camera. and you just wanna completely exude whatever your brand is. So if you're extremely, like, doc like, a doctor and, like, very professional and medical, than you wanna be in, like, a medical looking setting, a very professional background, have really good technology, look presentable, and professional. and say something authoritative. Right? If your vibe is way more like chill and, like, you know, you're a, you know, somatic experiencing therapist, then you maybe want a more comfortable background. You wanna have, like, stuffed armchairs and, you know, probably sunlight A cardigan, definitely a cardigan. Wear a cardigan. Have a Ficus? Yeah. A Ficus. Exactly. Maybe, like, a a

  Ben Fineman [00:22:51]:

  somewhere in the background a crystal, like a glowing -- Yes. Uh-huh. Exactly. Exactly.

  Carrie Wiita [00:22:55]:

  That's perfect. And you just wanna make sure that your performance, like, what you say matches that vyibe and is inviting. And definitely, please look straight into the barrel. You have to be looking into camera. Don't look away. Yeah. And when you're recording it, when you're recording your psychology today video, I recommend record it, like, 15 or 20 times. You can do it all in one take if you're recording by yourself, And then just, like, whether you're doing it in, like, a whatever editing software you use, you can just cut it up into little pieces and then just pick the best one. or you can start and stop the camera a million times, whatever you wanna do. But just record yourself a million times because eventually you're gonna get one where you're not nervous, and that's gonna be So that's why I just wanted to tell people. So go check out the the psychology data profile. When you, like, see what is in that front as soon as you click on it, above the fold, before you start scrolling, that's the important information. And so optimize that for your audiences. The people that you wanna reach and the people that you wanna have calling you for therapy, optimize it for them. What? That's that's my advice. Yeah.

  Ben Fineman [00:23:59]:

  So, Carrie, does does your advice obviously, there's no on the psychology state profile generator, that we had fun with, and we'll link in the show. That's did that was before videos. Yeah. So is everything you're describing? Yeah. Is this applicable to the the generator, or are we in, like, the the next frontier -- No. Yeah. I think the generator is kind of outdated at this point. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because we recorded this, like like I said, back in August of 22. And so Chat GPT did not exist then. So before we get into the psychology today, the generator, and all the fun that we we found there, real quick, I asked Chat GPT to write a bad psychology today pro to see how well this mapped on to these kinda, like, mock ones that we we will read shortly. Yeah. I just wanna read a few highlights here, and then we'll get into it. Can't we So the name of the therapist was doctor Eugene malpractice, credentials listed, none, but I've read a few articles online, and Carrie, what Eugene malpractice listed as his specialties according to chat GPT, this could not be more spot on. He said, I claim to specialize in every possible area of psychology because, well, why not? I'm an expert in cognitive behavioral therapy, psychoanalysis, humanistic psychology, and everything in between. I have no actual training or expertise in any of these areas, but I'm confident that my Internet research is more than enough to qualify me. Literally, your prompt was right of bad psychology to date for a while. Yeah. And I don't think that this was as good as the ones that the generator came up with just because the generator, like, actively mocks -- Right. Right. -- the norms, like, the just the flooring regurgitated process by which therapists have written their profiles. Yeah. Like, Chat should be deep came up with, like, a a an obvious fake. Yes. Right. But stay tuned because we have a lot of very good I think at some point in this episode, we read an actual psychology to your profile because we started to find them -- It did. -- like, indistinguishable from -- Yeah. -- the fake ones. Yeah. because are all, like, so formulaic at that point

  Carrie Wiita [00:26:02]:

  So? Yeah. Let's do it.

  Ben Fineman [00:26:10]:

  This may end up being

  Carrie Wiita [00:26:12]:

  our best or worst Patreon episode yet, Carrie. What are your thoughts, expectations, and how are you gonna control your laughter next hour. Okay. I'm not. I wanna say this up top to everyone listening, if you hate the fact that I laugh, like, when I laugh on this podcast or hate the sound of my laughter, which I my apologies if you do. Don't listen to this episode because I have a feeling I'm gonna be screaming with laughter this entire time. gonna try really hard to, like, duck away from the microphone for the most part, but this is I think this is number 1, Ben. This is one of your most brilliant ideas of all time. I can't believe you found this. Oh, I wanna know how you found this, and I can't wait to read these because this is hilarious.

  Ben Fineman [00:26:53]:

  So I think I think I found this on Reddit. And I immediately said, Carrie, we need to do an episode where we just go through this together. I love it. So What this is is a website called the therapist generator. We'll put links in the show notes, of course. It's therapistdashgenerator.glitch.me. And some incredible human being out there who must have gotten frustrated looking for a therapist on psychology today. Her name is Caitlin Dwyer, and we'll put a link to her Twitter page in the show notes as well. She came up with, like, a generator for fake psychology today profiles, and I don't know how much of this is prewritten. I don't know how much of this is AI or, like, a Mad Lib that just gets filled in in some ways that I don't fully understand. Wait. I will I will say that the pictures are are completely AI. They are generated

  Carrie Wiita [00:27:40]:

  by an AI thing that I have heard about called this person does not exist.com. which is terrifying. This website just generates, like, AI conglomerate, like, photo amalgamation photos of people. And it's unfucking canny because it looks like a real person, but it is not a real person. the the fake person I'm looking at on my screen looks completely real. Totally. It's so weird. So what we're gonna do is, Carrie, you and I will turn. Oh, wait. I think I interrupted you. I interrupted I mean, I know I interrupted you, but I you weren't you've you were describing what what what this is, what we're looking at. I don't know. I think we got there. Oh, we already said it that it's a it's a it's a fake psychology day to day profile. Yeah. But I think it's like, what makes it so much fun is it's a generator.

  Ben Fineman [00:28:28]:

  Yeah. So, like, these aren't just prewritten. Somebody put 10 of these online -- No. -- and left it. There's infinite numbers of these. And so you and I are gonna take turns, reading people's completely fake psychology today profiles.

  Carrie Wiita [00:28:40]:

  Yay.

  Ben Fineman [00:28:41]:

  And at the end of reading through various profiles, you and I are going to rate from 1 to 10 how likely we would be to see this person for therapy. And just for context, these look like psychology today profiles. There are a few sections. One is about where the therapist quote unquote writes about what they do. Then they list 3 specialties, issues that they treat, and types of therapy they provide. And these are all completely fucking ahead of this world. They're amazing.

  Carrie Wiita [00:29:06]:

  Could you just jump into it? Well and I do wanna say there's you know, like, how there's the orange button on the psychology day pro profile that's, like, contact me or whatever. It just says terminate. It says terminate.

  Ben Fineman [00:29:17]:

  I also like and the few that I've looked through, at at the top before the about section -- Yeah. -- that's, like, an alert section, and it this person's name, my first therapist, is Emma Hernandez. And it Emma Hernandez is unable to accept new clients at this time.

  Carrie Wiita [00:29:30]:

  And I think the 3 or 4 I've looked at so far all say that. That's hilarious. Like, it's a generator, but they're all They're all full. They're all full. And and, yeah, the one that I'm looking at says this Megan Garcia currently has a wait list for new clients. Oh, at least she has a wait list. She has a wait list. If you click on the about section written by, I'm assuming, Caitlin Dwyer, the creator of this incredible -- piece of artwork. One of the things that she says is you will notice, like, that when you're trying to find a therapist on psychology day to day profile. No one will call you back, but if they do their fall. And I think that's so accurate. It's so funny.

  Ben Fineman [00:30:09]:

  Alright. You wanna hear about Emma Hernandez? I do wanna know all about Emma Hernandez. Okay. Emma's a marriage and family therapist. Oh, good. And here's what she writes to you, the client. Okay. Let's face it. Even getting through the day can be hard sometimes. I know seeking therapy can be difficult. You deserve help today. I can help. I have extensive experience working with children. I am certified in jury counseling, an evidence based treatment protocol for individuals struggling with graft disorder. I am also extensively trained in interpersonal therapy, relational therapy, and depo therapy. Whether you're dealing with friends, geriatrics, or withdrawals, we will find the path to progress together. My therapy style is gentle and personal to you. As a therapist, I strive to help clients start your journey and find your way back to wellness. I will meet you where you are exclamation point period. I believe one of our purposes in life is to be happy and live a good life. I invite you to reach out and start your journey with me. I'm providing online therapy for now. It's simple and covered by insurance. Oh, wow. Carrie, would you like to hear her specialties if she is in types of therapy? Yes. I really do. Specialties are graph disorder, generosity, and conformity. Issues are antithesis, antithesis, forges, shame, postpartum depression -- Oh, okay. -- thefts mindfulness, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And governess And then types of therapy, depot therapy, attachment based therapy, mindfulness based cognitive therapy, communion therapy, sand play therapy, worksheet therapy, and she lists a medicine based approach.

  Carrie Wiita [00:31:53]:

  A medicine based approach. That's new. Alright. 1 to 10, how likely would you be to get not be able to see Emma Hernandez because she can't find time for you. I mean, look, if I had graft disorder, I think I'd I a 10 out of 10, absolutely. I've never I've never encountered a specialist in that particular disorder before. So, absolutely, I'd give her a call. I'd give her a a 5 out of 10. Yeah. Are you ready to hear about Megan Garcia? Please.

  Carrie Wiita [00:32:19]:

  Okay.

  Carrie Wiita [00:32:21]:

  Megan Garcia is a licensed mental health counselor. So she's got her she's at LMHC. She does has a she has a wait list for new clients, so that's encouraging about Are you struggling to like or accept yourself? You matter. In all caps with an exclamation point. I am one of the only therapists in my area specializing in sunroof addiction. I see myself as a local pioneer in truckload therapy. Whether you're dealing with trust, childhood acute neuropsychiatric symptoms, or grits, we will find the path to progress together. My therapy style is integrative and personal to you. As a therapist, I seek to help you, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, be your best, asterisk, asterisk self. I will join you on this path of life, deciphering what matters most, and what needs to be let go of. I believe the journey begins here. Let's get your journey started.

  Ben Fineman [00:33:35]:

  Have you ever seen those videos on YouTube or 2 comedians? sit across from each other, and it's like a game where the winner is the person who's able to make the other one laugh first. Oh god. No. feel like I'm in that game, and I am losing -- Yeah. -- beyond. There's no winning this game, Ben. There's no winning. What are her specialty? Yeah. Let me tell you.

  Carrie Wiita [00:33:53]:

  So glad you asked, sunroof addiction, the aforementioned sunroof addiction. That's a that's that's a tough one. I know. I know what it is. It's hard. Another specialty is appetite. Oh, that's fair. Just just appetite. And then rejection sensitive dysphoria.

  Ben Fineman [00:34:10]:

  which almost the right term. Almost might be real.

  Carrie Wiita [00:34:13]:

  Issues. Scabs.

  Carrie Wiita [00:34:20]:

  Bromides,

  Carrie Wiita [00:34:26]:

  sexual assault. Sexual abuse. Inconsistencies, understanding twins Okay. And emperors.

  Ben Fineman [00:34:41]:

  I can't. I don't know if anybody out there as listening as hard as we are or if they've turned this off because they can't stand us cackling, but this is the happiest I've ever been in my entire life.

  Carrie Wiita [00:34:53]:

  Ready for her types of therapy. Please. The aforementioned truckload therapy. Forest bathing, which is a real thing. Hypnotherapy also arguably real. The communion method, lope counseling, l o p e, lope counseling, registered feminism therapy, and cognitive behavioral therapy.

  Ben Fineman [00:35:19]:

  Our favorite. I'm glad that she's not doing unregistered

  Carrie Wiita [00:35:22]:

  feminine feminist therapy. I am also glad.

  Ben Fineman [00:35:24]:

  That is incredible.

  Carrie Wiita [00:35:26]:

  Shall we refresh? Oh, wait. No. On a scale of 1 to 10. 10. Like, a 100 out of 10. I would give her

  Ben Fineman [00:35:33]:

  I'd pay her all the money just to experience sunroof

  Carrie Wiita [00:35:36]:

  Addiction treatment and truckload therapy. At least somebody's doing it. I mean -- Yeah. It's an underserved population. It really is. Okay. Who you got? Okay. Oh, I like my my next one's really good. Okay. Go.

  Ben Fineman [00:35:53]:

  Okay. We have Jennifer Jackson, licensed mental health counselor, LmHC, unable to accept new clients at this time. Oh, it's too bad. Life can be hard, but it doesn't mean you have to endure the struggle alone. I'm confident that you are taking a courageous first step toward beginning your healing journey. Stop thinking you can't ask for help. I want to help you. I have extensive experience working with adolescents. I see my oh, jeez. I see myself as a local pioneer in Nook therapy. Oh, Whether you're dealing with oh, this is so hard.

  Carrie Wiita [00:36:34]:

  I love how I was the one who was gonna get in trouble for laughing.

  Ben Fineman [00:36:38]:

  Whether you're dealing with orgasm, asexuality, or puzzlers, I want to help you. My therapy style is integrative and warm. As a therapist, I seek to help you rediscover your inherent strengths and skills. I will walk this journey with you. I believe there are no broken or disposable people. I look forward to supporting you on your journey toward change, and then asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, all capital letters due to an uptick in demand I am not able to take declines. Specialties, banister disorder, gratitude, and nutrition.

  Carrie Wiita [00:37:20]:

  Oh, good. Okay.

  Ben Fineman [00:37:21]:

  Issues learning, giftedness, summers, neuroticism, compulsive behaviors, transducers and bambooz types of therapy. You know, it's funny. I'm reading these ahead. And if I was not in the therapy field. I would read this and really not know what's fake and what's real that we got. I know. Nook therapy, a Mago relationship therapy. Yes, sir. mindfulness based cognitive therapy, falsity psychology, compassion focused therapy, glee psychology, and stride assisted therapy.

  Carrie Wiita [00:38:00]:

  This is what I'm this is what is occurring for me as we're going through these. It's hilarious because it's true. Like, so many of these read the, like, the they read exactly, like, psychology to day profiles. Oh, yeah. That's why it's funny because it is you kinda can't tell the difference. And every single psychology today profile, like, pounds exactly the same and is so, like, boilerplate and so, like -- We could do this with real -- You could. -- that we shouldn't. But we could do this with real profiles, and it would only be slightly less -- Yes. -- absurd. Yes. Exactly. Okay. Are you ready for Kimberly Jackson?

  Ben Fineman [00:38:41]:

  Oh, wait. Hold on. We have to rate Jennifer. Oh, we had to rate her. Yeah. Yeah.

  Carrie Wiita [00:38:46]:

  Yeah. I'm gonna I'm gonna rate a solid, like, 8 out of 10 except for the fact that she's really

  Ben Fineman [00:38:51]:

  really not seeing new clients right now. I'd say 2 at attention. Doesn't speak to me. No. Okay. Okay. But I wonder if your if your therapist coming up is this person's sister or relative?

  Carrie Wiita [00:39:03]:

  Maybe. Could be. But I gotta tell you, Kimberly Jackson, it does not appear to not be taking clients. She's available? It looks like it -- She must have some niche specialties then. Let's hear about it. -- does. Oh, she does. Are you ready? No. See, this is so funny. This whole first paragraph -- It's the same boilerplate. I mean, it could literally be real. This could be a real Listen to this. Is your work stress affecting your confidence and spilling over in your personal life? Do you wanna feel more visible and important in your relationships? Are you continuing to repeat the same mistakes? If you are reading this, then now is the time to take a new journey for yourself. You deserve a safe place to say exactly how you feel without fear of judgment or someone think mean you're crazy. Finding your way to this Moment is your journey. Together, we can embrace your strengths and work toward the life you have envisioned. There's nothing like that. That's actually good. I think that's -- Completely legitimate. Wait. No. Wait. Wait. Good. Good. How are you how are you rating good? A good version

  Ben Fineman [00:40:06]:

  of what I think the common knowledge in our field is about what a psychology's day profile should look like. Doesn't that make it, like, inherently bad if it just, like, this is, like, a philosophical tangent we could go on forever because it blows my mind that this is the state of therapy profiles because you would think clients would look at that and be like like, these people are all the same. What's the like, this is ridiculous. But it must work if this is well, maybe maybe we shouldn't just put faith in the status quo. Maybe -- Doesn't -- Somebody's waiting to come along and do sunroof therapy in blow the whole system smithereens.

  Carrie Wiita [00:40:46]:

  They do. But that's what I'm saying. Can I -- I don't no. Go ahead. Oh, I was gonna say,

  Ben Fineman [00:40:52]:

  I wanna get to a stage in my professional career where I really don't need to get a lot of a lot of, like, new client requests. Right. so I can have a psychology today for a file and just with permission of the person who created this generator, just copy and paste one of these just to see what since if I get anybody who emails me. You would. I I guarantee you. You would. I guarantee it. What are you gonna say?

  Carrie Wiita [00:41:13]:

  I feel like I mean, I think that to your point of, like, you know, these must work, I don't think that that's the conclusion that we could come to. I think maybe at one point, the these this shit worked back when all the psychology to tabor files were all, like, I am triple certified in CBT and TF CBT and EMDR and, you know, and that's all it said. And I went to school, and I've been practicing for 10 years. And I am take I take this insurance. I think back when psychology day today profiles just said that, And then somebody came along and was like, is your work stress affecting your confidence and spilling over into your personal life? That first thing like, when that first happened. I bet clients were like, oh my god. A real human. Like, not a cold clinical, like you know?

  Ben Fineman [00:42:00]:

  Yeah. For some reason, hear you read that or say that out loud. That's how the like, you know, in in America, prescription drug companies can have TV ads. Yes. Exactly. It blows the mind of people not in America. Like, that sounds insane. Right. Or in most countries, it's insane to think about. But that's what they do. And they have infinite amounts of money to research and decide what is the best way to get people to want their product.

  Carrie Wiita [00:42:26]:

  and they still do that. Well, no. They don't. They don't. Think it it shifts. It's just like any advertising. Advertising shifts or it should. advertising should shift over time because as the consumer gets used to seeing a particular like, it a good advertising stands out. Right? And so as you get used to the exact same thing over and over again, you need to start seeing differ something different. That's why in, like, American commercials, for example, you start seeing aspirational advertising. Right? Like, the leave it to beaver mom pulling a beautiful pie out of the oven. And now we've it is morphed is at this point where we have these absurdist humor like, the the limu emu commercials. Right? It's a whole it makes no sense. It has nothing to do with how good the product is. It's just ridiculous. It's just silly. And it's, like, tangentially related, but more it's purely entertainment. It's entertainment. Interesting. Right? And so that's what we expect now. And so now, like, how is and there a lot of advertising is changing in in a lot of ways. you see a lot now more rather than us wanting commercials, now consumers want to hear from other consumers. Now we that's the rise of the testimonials. Right? the rise of testimonials, the rise of reviews, the rise of big data. That's what's becoming more requested or required by consumers when making a purchasing decision. But that's why I think that these psychology data profiles are so stuck in the past that that's they're comical now. It's funny now. And so just like, you can't say that it works because people call. People call because there's no other option. Because, like, if this is all that's out there, you're I guarantee you what's happening. I guarantee you as a client's read and are bored by this boilerplate, and they're just searching for any little piece like sunroof addiction. Hey. That speaks to me. I mean, let me tell you let me tell you a little bit more about Kimberly Jackson. Yep. For example, how she's she's a unique she's a niche provider. She's really dialed in on her niche population. Kimberly Jackson is one of the only therapists in her area specializing in scalpel disorder.

  Carrie Wiita [00:44:39]:

  Okay.

  Carrie Wiita [00:44:40]:

  She utilizes and see, this is, again, isn't this funny? This is where it goes off the rails, and it sounds like a a client would absolutely believe this. I utilize a variety of evidence based therapeutic techniques, such as cognitive behavioral therapy, neurolinguistic neurolinguistic programming therapy and registered turtle neck therapy.

  Ben Fineman [00:45:03]:

  It's, like, 2 lie or 2 truths and a lie right there. Exactly.

  Carrie Wiita [00:45:07]:

  Whether you're dealing with law and crime, hallucination, or cordons, we can work with you on your journey to healing. My therapy style is fun and conversational. As a therapist, they seek to lay the foundation for a strong and safe therapeutic relationship. I will meet you where you are in your journey. I believe you are worth it 4 exclamation points in a period. At this time, for health, wellness, and safety purposes, I'm only seeing clients virtually utilizing the Zoom platform. Now let's see. Her her issues, which I really I really like her, the issues that she she works with, in particular, evil. Menopause, masturbation, concussion, conformity, dishwashers and stentures. Okay. So, like, this is this is how I've this is exactly why I feel bad for clients. Like, clients of therapy. If you don't know like, this is hilarious to us because we know what is real and then what, like, sounds real, but is absolutely ludicrous. But, like, how was a client supposed to know?

  Ben Fineman [00:46:27]:

  It would be fun. to create a version of this, just like a fake profile that uses real only uses real terminology. So what is the most absurd sounding thing we could put together that actually isn't in any way hyperbolic or made up but it just uses certain terms in our field that may as well be completely ridiculous like these, but we have a side meeting to them. Completely. I mean, like, that's literally you could go to any psychology today profile and find that. Alright. You wanna hear about

  Carrie Wiita [00:46:58]:

  was just gonna ask, do you want me to go find a psychology today profile? And we'll read it. What if I did that? What if I slipped in 1?

  Ben Fineman [00:47:06]:

  Sorry. We gotta we gotta rate your I'd say, like, 8 and a half out of 10 just because I really like the interesting mix of that she works with evil. I mean, right -- And -- -- and menopause..

  Carrie Wiita [00:47:17]:

  Yeah. And dishwashers. And, also, not for nothing. She's a psychologist with a PhD. So -- I've got a a psychologist here. Alright. Let's hear that. Vanessa Williams,

  Ben Fineman [00:47:28]:

  who currently has a wait list for new clients. Wait. Was Vanessa Williams -- Williams?

  Carrie Wiita [00:47:33]:

  singer? Yes, Jeez. I didn't know she pivoted. That's exciting.

  Ben Fineman [00:47:37]:

  This does not look like the Vanessa really fell off. -- a different Vanessa. Oh, she starts with the tried and true method of asking questions, which I know is, like, best practice in creating a a profile. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How desperate are you for a solution to feel the same way you once did? Do you wanna feel more visible and important in your relationships? I think she may have copy and paste it from the other one. I think she did. Do you go to work each day with a knot of anxiety or dread in the pit of your stomach? My god. You are not the only one. whatever challenges you're facing, you are equipped to face. Doesn't say I can help you. And she says whatever you're facing, you are equipped to face. And why do we need her? Okay. because because

  Carrie Wiita [00:48:15]:

  a good therapist helps you find the resources within yourself, Ben.

  Ben Fineman [00:48:19]:

  Fair. I am one of the only therapists in my area specializing in gratification syndrome. My approach is rooted in psychoanalytic therapy and lexicon therapy. Whether you're dealing with harm reduction, bipolar disorder, or surgeons, I can help you climb the mountain of life and grow emotionally. My therapy style is grounded and curious. As a therapist, I seek to start you on your journey. I will walk this journey alongside you. I believe there is power in working toward all caps, goals. Please reach out. I'm here for you. I provide both online and in office sessions with masks. I'm available for new clients, which I love that because it directly contradicts that she has a wait list, which you often see Yeah. Exactly. Specialties, gratification syndrome, fiction, and hemophilia, hemophilia.

  Carrie Wiita [00:49:12]:

  Oh, I think that's a thing. Issues, chronic illness, consumerism,

  Ben Fineman [00:49:16]:

  stereotypes, sheen's, happiness, Stuartesses and roasters, types of therapy, lexicon therapy, biofeedback forensic therapy. registered wafer therapy, triad therapy, exposure and response prevention, and biofeedback.

  Carrie Wiita [00:49:37]:

  What do you what do you got here? What's your name? 10 out of 10. Would absolutely wanna start my journey with her.

  Ben Fineman [00:49:43]:

  Yes.

  Carrie Wiita [00:49:44]:

  I'm gonna go out I'm gonna stake a claim in in in a controversial statement. I'm gonna I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna say I'm a directly contradictory. All the, like, advice that's out there for, like, therapist marketing, whatever. Stop asking open ended questions. They're so dumb at this point. They're hackneyed. It's over. Like, it's such a joke. Do you wanna feel more visible and important in your Like, no. Stop. Like, again, I think it worked at some point, but, like, I don't I think that I think that we can do better therapists. I think we can do better. Don't you think? This is like this is now I'm getting a little now I'm getting angry. Now I'm getting angry. I'm getting -- -- actual

  Ben Fineman [00:50:30]:

  like, quality research on this because you go to, like, marketing trainings, or you see people in the advice they give out. And that isn't grounded in anything concrete that I'm aware of. It's just grounded in what -- Grand. Nothing. -- sounds good, what makes sense. Well -- But how do we know, like, we're at the point of this being memed. Exactly. That's exactly. -- to reflect some kind of cultural tipping point that we're saying if I see somebody saying, How desperate are you for a solution? Right. You roll your eyes and you're like, yeah. You and everybody else, of course, like -- Exactly. Well and that's the thing. It's like, you know, what what was it based on. Right?

  Carrie Wiita [00:51:05]:

  On the one level, like, yeah, you know, marketing companies pour 1,000,000,000 of dollars into market research so that their marketing is effective. And it's like all of this advice came from somewhere. but it's trickled down to us from somewhere that was never intended for us. You know? Like, all of this is, like, you know, repackaged, you know, marketing advice from your, whatever, online marketing guru people. And it's like, I don't this is why I did my thesis on when I did my thesis on because it's not for us. This was not ever designed for for us. It's just that, like, some people heard this in other areas and other domains and, like, applied it to therapy. And, again, I don't think that that's wrong. As you and I have, like, discussed, I think that it's super important for us to look outside of our field to figure out how are other people doing things that we need to get better at. But I also think that you shouldn't just, like, apply slap shit that works in other areas onto our field. Like, I don't I think I don't think this works anymore, and I also know that it doesn't work anymore. If you Google, like, psychology today profile, therapy. I can't remember what exactly I googled, but, like, I found some YouTube videos of clients saying, don't do this. I hate this. It's so annoying. And I just I feel like they're not this isn't doing what we need to do. This isn't a this isn't reaching out to people who need therapy. This isn't how this is is doing nothing effective. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's not setting any any expectations for therapy. It's not appealing to any preferences. It's doing no education about, you know,

  Ben Fineman [00:52:45]:

  anything in therapy, what therapy is, how it works, nothing. I'm with you. Also, by the way, I don't know if this is have all of the therapists that that you've read so far been white women?

  Carrie Wiita [00:52:58]:

  They've all had the same picture. Really? Mine are different pictures, but they're all white women. And I feel like that's on brand too that the It is super on brand. Mine is actually not a white woman. Oh, there the picture was just changed. Okay. I think it was just a glitch. But, yeah, my the last one that I had was not white woman, but, yeah, now it's been mostly here. I'm gonna do a couple switches, a couple refreshes. Yeah. White woman. Hold on. Oh, Asian woman. White woman. White woman.

  Ben Fineman [00:53:29]:

  I don't know if that was by accident or if that's just like the -- Definitely not. -- face generator doing its thing with that -- Maybe -- -- feels -- Oh, I got it. That's funny. Alright. Who's your next Ugh.

  Carrie Wiita [00:53:40]:

  Am I going, or are you going? I think I just did Vanessa Williams. Oh, you did? Okay. Yes. So Emily Martin. She's a licensed clinical practice counselor, and she has a wait list. And I don't think that she's super overweight, she says. Has a recent or past trauma created challenges that are you are ready to be passed? Is it hard to even get out of bed since your loss? How determined are you it's every single one of these is asking 4 questions and ends with now's the time to start a new journey. every single one of these. Oh. Oh, I don't know how I feel about this. I am one of the only therapists my area specializing in rope addiction. Okay. I use a variety of evidence based therapeutic techniques such as existential therapy, play therapy, and multiplexer therapy.

  Ben Fineman [00:54:32]:

  Whether you -- That sounds like something you could charge a lot for. I know. Whether you're dealing with stress,

  Carrie Wiita [00:54:38]:

  life coaching, or squires, so we can work together. I will walk this journey alongside you. Please reach out. I'm here for you. Oh, she has a quote. She is a quote. That's something that I feel, like, what happened for a very long time. And then, like, people are are are fortunately letting it go. But remember how, like, every -- single therapist website started with, like, a Renee brand quote for a long time. Yeah. Here's a quote, shared joy is double joy. Shared sorrow is half sorrow. I kinda like that quote. I mean yeah. But, like, what the fuck does that even -- Who who's the quote from? It doesn't say. There's no citation. Oh, no. Wait. Let me look it up. I see it this is actually great. What is it? No. It is. And I it's like a it's like a parable or something. Share Joy is double joy. shared sorrow is half sorrow. I've said that before. Google tells me it's a Swedish proverb. A Swedish proverb. I love that. Great.

  Ben Fineman [00:55:36]:

  I feel like targeted. This one surprisingly, like, kinda held together through a lot of it about loss sorrow, existential therapy can fit into that model. I feel like we got some coherence here. Yeah. Absolutely.

  Carrie Wiita [00:55:50]:

  I still I I'm gonna take it back. I don't think I would I would not go to this person.

  Ben Fineman [00:55:54]:

  What what issues does she treat? She treats

  Carrie Wiita [00:55:59]:

  Chums -- Chums. -- slayings

  Carrie Wiita [00:56:02]:

  -- Jesus Christ. -- stadiums, polyamory, Marinas, guilt and accomplice, like the latin spelling, like, accomplice. Okay.

  Ben Fineman [00:56:16]:

  Can I steal your idea now? because I feel like -- Yes. -- I've seen the -- Yes. I am not gonna choose somebody on purpose. Do it. I'm just gonna find a random psychology today profile. So if this ever lands on the ears of somebody who this is actually their profile -- Also, it's not your fault. not gonna be -- -- wrote it this way. Total coincidence. Okay. Give me a a city or a ZIP code to search in, and we're just gonna go with, like, the the 4th one on the list.

  Carrie Wiita [00:56:43]:

  Burbank, California.

  Ben Fineman [00:56:44]:

  No. It can't be local. I'm trying to create some weird awkwardness

  Carrie Wiita [00:56:47]:

  outside of California. Lubbock, Texas. Lubbock. Wow. Okay. Texas Tech. Is that where they are? I have no idea what's there. K. I was once told it's, like, the nexus of, like, nothingness.

  Ben Fineman [00:57:00]:

  Okay. not gonna read the name. But I am currently offering evening online appointments for all Texas residents. Nice. accepting new clients. Great. Wow. We've broke we've broke the book. We broke it. Life can be overwhelming at times. It's the same shit. Oh my gosh. Okay. Life can be overwhelming at times. You may have found yourself in a relationship where you cannot communicate Effectively, and the connection you had at the beginning is missing. Or maybe you're struggling with feeling anxious or depressed and don't know if it will ever get better. This is not the life or relationship that you envision for yourself. Like, I I feel guilty. Imagine that you no longer feel burdened by anxiety and depression and finally feel it ease and secure. Your partner is your friend again. And for the first time in a while, you are excited to spend time with you are able to move forward into the next chapter of your life and feel confident in your ability to effectively manage life's hurdles. As a licensed marriage and family therapist associate, I am trained in working with couples and individuals to help them renew their relationships and create a meaningful life for themselves. Email or call me today, so I can begin helping you create the life and relationships you deserve.

  Carrie Wiita [00:58:14]:

  Okay. So here's the thing. And this is why I feel I felt this is My god. Every time we have this conversation, Ben, I'm like, you know what? Fuck it. I gotta get started on my shit tomorrow. I feel like therapists it's not their fault. Right?

  Ben Fineman [00:58:30]:

  This isn't perfectly, like and like I'm saying this out of guilt that we've anonymously called this person out.

  Carrie Wiita [00:58:36]:

  No. It sounds -- This is totally fine. This is a really well written version of what we're told we're supposed to write. Well and what you're told to write is, number 1, appeal to the your your target population. So you're supposed to ask these questions and make these statements so that you the target client is like, They are reading my mind. And then you're supposed to focus on they call it focus on the transformation. Right? So that's what you see in the second half of that of that profile is the pivot from away from. See, I I read your mind. I'm totally identified with you. I know everything about you. I know you better than you know yourself. Then you pivot to, this is what your life look like once you're done with therapy. Yeah. Your partner will be your friend again and blah blah blah. And, again, this is not bad marketing advice. It's really not. it's much better than, like, I am level 2 Gottman certified and blah blah blah. Without explaining any of that, like, that is more meaningless

  Ben Fineman [00:59:31]:

  at least you're saying -- I don't even know if I agree with it. What do you mean? -- there are some clients that want to know that you are an expert with specialized training. And -- I agree. -- what you put there it could be a weekend certification you got on Udemy. Right. Right. -- be, like, the $10,000 training to be a somatic experiencing practitioner. I don't think clients know or care beyond, like, a very hyper focused niche that wants something specific, but there are clients who want reassurance that you are trained? Yes. You're a licensed that you're a doctor that you have training in x, y, and z in a certification in your level 10 or whatever stamp. Totally. I but, like, see, what that's what the difference is. Right? And I and I and I'm not sure it's

  Carrie Wiita [01:00:11]:

  there is saying I'm level 2 Gottman certified. Right? The client then has to go look that up and figure out what that means, and is that good? Right? So there there's all this extra work the client needs to do to figure out what functionally does that mean for the client? Do you think clients do that, or do you think the majority of clients see that and just go like, subconsciously go, oh, this person is qualified, and they don't know or care what they saw. It's an absolute, like, a scatter scatterplot. Like, I I think that it totally depends on the kind I'm the kind of person who when I see that, I go Google it. I go Google, what is Gotman, what does that mean to be level 2 certified, what does it take to get level 2 vacation, I will do that to go understand what that fucking means. But a lot of people won't because, like, it sounds impressive, so I guess but so all I'm saying is, there that says that says something, but it also says nothing. Whereas your partner will be your friend again is at least a halfway attempt to describe what the Gottman process is supposed to do. Right? It's like an attempt in one sentence to distill, to lay people terms what the Gottman method is supposed to do for you as a client. It's supposed to get you from your current stress to your partner as your friend again. But what I what really bothers me is that it's so it it is so reduced that I think that is also not so useful for clients. What does that mean like, my partner is my friend again. How? Like, functionally, like, what does a therapy do to get us there? And I think that, unfortunately, sometimes, our attempts at distilling what Gottman method does down to one sentence. Also, I think, unfortunately, has the negative effect of making it seem like it's that easy. Like, it's show up to therapy magic wand. You'll be friends again. And I think that's a huge disservice to clients.

  Ben Fineman [01:02:09]:

  I don't disagree, but doesn't this get into, like, the same thing that we often return to, which is how much hedging do you wanna do up front? How much Mhmm. Educating of potential clients, do you wanna do that? About half of clients see meaningful change from therapy. Right. Maybe 5 10% actually deteriorate, and the rest don't see any change. Right. I mean, it seems great to tell clients that so that they don't internalize if therapy doesn't work. but does that reduce the placebo effect? The expectancy, the clients will think it's going to work -- Right. -- which it's like a it's like a lever. and you have to figure out, like, which levers to push and how much or some like, making gestures are, like, milking your cow. It's, like, I I worry that we're falling into the very common trap of seeing something that is imperfect or problematic, and calling it out without knowing that there's objectively something better. because maybe this is, like, this template of a psychology today page. maybe this is the best

  Carrie Wiita [01:03:09]:

  we got. No. I'll tell you right now. It's not. It's not. And I will tell you and I will tell you -- -- the solution. The solution well okay. So first of all, you have to parse out. There's what is the solution to therapist marketing right now? I I I believe I have a a solution to that. But the the the bigger question is, this this thorny issue of how much do we talk about the what we don't know about therapy and risk the placebo effect that I have no answer for. That I still is an existential crisis in my soul. I I do not yet understand how or why like, how we grapple with that. But I don't think our I don't think our field is even addressing that question, which is what is like, angers me. I think that that is a is a really important critical research question that's just kind of being, like, not, like, ignored. Like, just conveniently ignored right now. what is the solution for therapist marketing, I think, is content marketing because that's where we're going. And I think that that's that's where, like, all the all other fields are going towards that. And it is, again, like, if you take the service dominant logic perspective, that is where we are. That's the water that we're swimming in, and I think that that's, like, the best thing that we can do as citizens. Therab citizens who are therapists, pieces of this network who are therapists. So this, like, this psychology today profile situation. Right? It assumes that this is the marketing. It assumes that this is all you've got to work with. Right? And that this is this is you should somehow be able to communicate the transformation your clients will go through in a one sentence line in your psychology today profile. And that is, I think, a fundamental fundamentally wrong assumption. I don't think a psychology today profile should function or serve as your be all end all of what how you communicate to potential clients. It is a a piece. It is a little, like, crumb for potential clients to stumble across and then try to go find more information. I firmly believe it's our responsibility as therapists for this Chrome to be out there, absolutely. But then there needs that we need to make available so much more information by by doing what's called content marketing. And that is everything that you see. Like and, like, all of the social media stuff, the blogging, the, like, writing pieces for you know, different journalists journalism outposts such as they are. Like, therapists need to do a much better job of communicating out what they do to the general public, regardless of whether they are trying to get people to sign up to be clients. I think that if we were did a better job of making known what we do is there, but first of all, knowing what we do is there. and then also communicating that out there on a larger scale, you would have clients who would have a better understanding of what therapy is or what it could be. And I think that that just leads to better informed clients who are more ready to start the therapy process. And then you're gonna end up with clients who are better who a higher chance that they're gonna end up in the first session with a therapist that fits their expectations and preferences for therapy rather than this, like, This psychology today, it's like Russian roulette. It's like just picking a random one and hoping like, because they all look exactly the same. Am I making sense? Yeah.

  Ben Fineman [01:06:33]:

  No. Completely. I'm -- I I don't have any strong thoughts. I'm just I'm here for it. I have so many strong thoughts. I -- Harry, Is is life overwhelming at times? Yes. Do you have sunroof addiction?

  Carrie Wiita [01:06:46]:

  Yes. I really need -- I provide trauma

  Ben Fineman [01:06:50]:

  form Nook therapy, I can help.

  Carrie Wiita [01:06:53]:

  I'm ready to start my journey.

  Ben Fineman [01:06:55]:

  You're ready to start, and you can start for yourself. I will walk with you, and I will see you through this path.

  Carrie Wiita [01:07:02]:

  This whole time, I don't know I needed somebody to walk with me, but now I know. What do you think? Do you want to each do one more to close it out? I love it. Yeah. Let's do it. Hang on. I wanna find a good one. Okay. Have a good one. Alright. Let's hear it. Does transitioning to the next phase in life seem out of reach? Are you struggling with a sense of unhappiness and boredom? Is it hard to even get out of bed since your loss? If you're reading this, then now is the time to take a new journey for yourself. It can be painful and exhausting in many ways. I have had 9 years of -- experience practicing therapy with chumps. I utilize a variety of evidence based therapeutic techniques, such as Ben, acceptance of commitment therapy, somatic therapy and school mate therapy. That all could be real. Whether you're dealing whether you're dealing with Placebo, just Child development or multiparties, I would be honored to work with you. My therapy style is evidence based and integrative. As a therapist, I strive to help clients live a more satisfying life and climb the mountain of life. I will journey alongside you as you explore self, growth, and healing. I believe we are complex human beings with multiple sides of our identities. I look forward to meeting you and joining you on a brave journey of recovery. Oh, and she is available for new clients. Hey. Andrea Clark, her specialties include Downer disorder, teamwork, and the gut brain access. Her issues. Her issues are rejections, sensitivity, sainthood, greed, rationing, fares or fairies. I'm not sure icebergs and ignoramuses. But, Ted, this is a therapy. She is a particularly specialize in are school made therapy, music therapy, mindfulness based cognitive therapy, the expansionism method,

  Carrie Wiita [01:09:13]:

  Oh.

  Carrie Wiita [01:09:14]:

  The urgency based approach,

  Carrie Wiita [01:09:17]:

  breakage

  Carrie Wiita [01:09:19]:

  psychology, and Everyone's favorite cognitive behavioral therapy.

  Ben Fineman [01:09:26]:

  Some of those sound really marketable. Like, the urgency based approach? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's, like, solution focused. Yeah. Man, 10 out of 10 on that one. Absolutely. Okay. I've got Kaye Brown. Alright, Katie. A white woman. No. Wow. Great. She is just says clinical social work, m s w l s c s w. She currently has a wait list.

  Carrie Wiita [01:09:50]:

  Too bad. Oh, no.

  Ben Fineman [01:09:52]:

  This is a great first thought. Oh, no. My favorite first sentence so far. Oh, good. Life can seem like a hot mess. That's that that would be good. I would wanna know more. Life can seem like a hot mess. I am privileged to journey with my clients. That's a tough place to be. I can help you. I have extensive experience working with teens. I am certified in litigant assisted therapy. Oh. An evidence based treatment protocol for individuals struggling with a window pain disorder. Oh, no. I'm sorry. Window Pain Syndrome. I am also extensively trained in strength based therapy. play therapy and registered

  Carrie Wiita [01:10:33]:

  gallows therapy. Oh my god.

  Ben Fineman [01:10:37]:

  Whether you're dealing with locus of control, education or or catch words, you are at the right place. My therapy style is integrative and laid back. I guess, gallows therapy is a very laid back approach. Sure. Totally. As a therapist, I seek to help clients feel more confident and feel radically accepted. Oh, good. I will be honored to walk with you on your journey. Through the hot mess. I believe the first step to begin healing is allowing yourself to ask for help on this journey. I can guide you on your personal journey. She's really hitting this journey angle hard. So much journeying. And then she just lets you know that she's got online and in person with masks. That's great. And she says she's available, though. She has a -- That is good. Specialties, window pain syndrome, collaboration, and self harm. Issues -- -- same time? Or -- Issues Chola's, which after some brief editing and realizing we were being offensive in learning, we googled and realized that Chola's is a cactus with a cylindrical stem. c o c h o l l a s is a cactus with a cylindrical stem. Yes. We have learned today, and we will do better. cortizones,

  Carrie Wiita [01:11:52]:

  isthmus. What's an isthmus? Cortizone is the steroid, and isthmus is the piece of land that connects land to other land through or, no, the isthmus is the water that goes between 2 big pieces of land.

  Ben Fineman [01:12:07]:

  you know a lot of various shit, and this woman has some hyper focused niches. Very very specific. Other issues include cutting respirators, attachment, and renegotiations, and we'll conclude with her types of therapy. registered gallows therapy, expressive arts therapy, play therapy, simulation assisted therapy, prolonged exposure therapy, And then the last 2, registered counterterrorism

  Carrie Wiita [01:12:33]:

  therapy -- Oh my god. -- and registered largest therapy. Woah. Okay. Great. Just just a fact check. I just wanna say I was right the first time, and isthmus is a narrow strip of land with sea on either side.

  Ben Fineman [01:12:47]:

  Well, if you are listening and you have issues with isthmuses -- Yeah. -- Katie Brown does not exist, but She is ready to help you on your journey. She really wants to help you with that journey. Well, this was an experience.

  Carrie Wiita [01:13:00]:

  This is a lot. I'm so glad you found this.

  Ben Fineman [01:13:04]:

  You know, we we have the option in a future episode of using a blender bot. the new -- I I can't wait. -- slash Facebook AI chatbot, which in a quick trial run yesterday told me incorrectly, cannot stress that enough, but incorrectly that Bruce Wompold was a fraud who falsified his research.

  Carrie Wiita [01:13:23]:

  And when I asked -- Blenderbot doubled down on that multiple times.

  Ben Fineman [01:13:30]:

  When I when I asked BlenderBot to cite his bold claim, he said, just google it. and then he changed the subject. So we're we're not there yet, but AI might take over psychology today, but Yeah. I will not take over the world yet. I think we should do a live episode

  Carrie Wiita [01:13:50]:

  with doing a conversation with BlenderBot. And see it happen, like, unfold in real time. I think that would be so entertaining. I think 2 things would happen either.

  Ben Fineman [01:14:01]:

  it will go off the rails and be hilarious, and BlenderBot will say things that will either be funny or maybe we'll have to edit out. Right. Or it'll just come up with something really good and actually improve the state of therapy because -- It could happen. -- had some good insights before getting a little troller. Really? super aggressive about personal loans. Yeah.

  Carrie Wiita [01:14:20]:

  Not really aggressive.

  Ben Fineman [01:14:22]:

  Apparently, I was reading an article about this. Apparently, people have been asking BlenderBot. about Mark Zuckerberg since it's a meta -- Oh, shit. Yeah. And it just, like, starts talking shit about Mark Zuckerberg and how he's unethical and Basically, the same stuff it was saying about for swamp folder. Oh my god. I wonder if Blender bought is just, like, very anti authority, but refuses to back up its claims.

  Carrie Wiita [01:14:42]:

  Well, this is super fun. Thanks to the suggested Ben. I enjoyed this. This was

  Ben Fineman [01:14:48]:

  it was something. Thank you. It sure was. That was great. Alright. We'll see y'all next next time. Okay. For for listener mail for this episode, we don't have the the typical mail that gets submitted via our our Gmail account. Right. But in this episode, we talked about briefly, like, the tension between the tran like, being transparent with clients about the fact that we don't know how therapy works, and sometimes it doesn't versus boosting Placebo by communicating that it does work. And I think at some point, one of us said, like, the field just is not addressing And this is a recurring theme that we've talked about. Right. So we have a very timely Facebook comment

  Carrie Wiita [01:15:32]:

  and or Facebook post? Comment? It was a comment. Yeah.

  Ben Fineman [01:15:36]:

  So I wanna read that because it's so applicable, and I think this was one of the best comments we've gotten. Definitely.

  Carrie Wiita [01:15:41]:

  Definitely.

  Ben Fineman [01:15:43]:

  This was a comment from Frank Lowe, on our recent episode, the post we put on our Facebook page about what does trauma inform to mean. And so here's what Frank wrote. Fantastic episode as always. It's always informative to listen to your conversations slash struggles with the literature, and you got a good amount of laughs and smiles on top. Thank you, Ben and Finally, my own struggle with informed consent and ethics regarding pseudoscience in our field was addressed. Colleagues have written very helpful articles, which I would like to share with The take home message is don't fool clients. Go open. Even when you fear you could undermine efficacy, it's not worth it. Yalam wrote, quote, I propose a diametrically opposed view of the healing process throughout this text. The establishment of an authentic relationship with patients by its very nature demands that we forego the power of triumvirate, triumvirate?

  Carrie Wiita [01:16:32]:

  Yeah. Of the triumvirate.

  Ben Fineman [01:16:33]:

  Of the triumvirate of magic, mystery, and authority. Cycotherapy is intrinsically so robust that it gains a great deal by full disclosure of the process and rationale of treatment, and then frank listed whole bunch of wonderful journal articles here about this idea of being transparent with clients about just informed consent about therapy as a whole, how it works, when it doesn't work, etcetera. So we'll link all of those in the show notes, and thank you to Frank for

  Carrie Wiita [01:17:00]:

  writing that on our Facebook huge. Thank you. That was so cool. Thank you for listening to very bad therapy. The views and opinions expressed do not constitute therapeutic or legal advice nor do they represent any entity other than ourselves or our guests.

  Ben Fineman [01:17:20]:

  Visit us at very badtherapy.com for more content, ways to support the podcast, or to let us know a few of a story you'd like to share on the show. If you'd like to join our Patreon community and get access to our monthly bonus episodes, check us out at patreon.com/verybadtherapy.