Episode 141 - “Not All Christians…” (with Josh Foster, LCPC)

What is religious trauma, and why do some therapists refuse to work with clients who use that language? In today’s episode, Jeremy speaks about his experiences with therapists who felt the need to defend their faith in session, and we are joined by Josh Foster, LCPC to discuss the complicated intersection between evangelical Christianity and ethical psychotherapy. 

Thank you for listening. To support the show and receive access to regular bonus episodes, check out the Very Bad Therapy Patreon community. Today’s episode is sponsored by Ben Caldwell Labs – training, advocacy, books, and additional resources for counselors and therapists. Today’s episode is also sponsored by Sentio Counseling Center – high-quality, low-fee online therapy in California with immediate availability for new clients.

Introduction: 0:00 – 11:11

Part One: 11:11 – 50:09

Part Two: 50:09 – 1:28:44

Show Notes:

• Support the Secular Therapy Project

• Jeremy Magin: Website

• Josh Foster: Website / Email

• Religious Trauma Syndrome

• Transcript

  Carrie Wiita [00:00:00]:

  Welcome to very bad therapy. A closer look at what goes wrong in the counseling room and how it could go better as told by the clients who survived.

  Ben Fineman [00:00:09]:

  From Los Angeles, I'm Caroline Wiita. And I'm Ben Fineman legally encouraged to say that this podcast does not constitute therapeutic advice. But it will get interesting. Let's get started. Alright, Carrie. A long time ago on this very podcast, you may recall that we had an idea for a new segment called is it bad therapy where people write in therapists or clients with scenarios that played out, and they're curious to get our perspective on does this qualify as bad therapy in our minds, and then we talk about it on the show.

  Carrie Wiita [00:00:46]:

  Yeah. I I thought it was more than an idea. We actually did this because I distinctly remember being in agony over sitting in the seat of judgment.

  Ben Fineman [00:00:56]:

  Mhmm. Well, good news is is we get to continue sitting in the the seat of judgment. Oh, which is actually an appropriate theme for this episode as a whole. It's so true. We haven't really invited people to share there is it bad therapy stories, but I'm I'm up for a reboot because I think this is fun. I think this is interesting, and we had a recent submission. So for anybody listening who wants us, to throw out our perspectives about is it bad therapy, the only rule is that it has to be submitted at 150 words or less just because the I mean, these can be very nuanced, so we're kinda -- Right. -- shoehorning it into something straightforward.

  Carrie Wiita [00:01:35]:

  Yeah. Exactly.

  Ben Fineman [00:01:36]:

  So can I read our most recent submission to the is it bad therapy segment? Yes. Please do. Okay. I had a pretty rocky end with a therapist who said to me, quote, maybe I was just too smart for her at one point. This is not the bad therapy in question. She sent me some potential therapist names and out of 5, one resonated, and I reached out. We had an intake and chatted for a little over 20 minutes, which, unfortunately, I shut down, telling her that I was feeling very burnt out during this process, but she eventually agreed to meet me in person. We set a date. She sent me the intake. I filled it out within two hours of the initial phone call. This was Friday. On Tuesday, she said, quote, due to personal reasons, She could no longer take on any more clients. I did reveal a prior BPD diagnosis in my intake, and I can't help but think that was the quote personal reason. Was this bad therapy?

  Carrie Wiita [00:02:28]:

  Oh. Okay. So, see, this is my heart does break for clients sometimes because it's yeah. Like, there are so many things that are opaque about their be, particularly the whole process of, like, getting a therapist. And so I can totally see why this client might be questioning, like, you know, is is it because I revealed this and that's why they don't wanna work with me? So I I my heart breaks because I how can you not have those thoughts go through your head? But I act I am gonna come down on it. It's not bad therapy because We actually I mean, we have no idea what's going on with this therapist, like, genuinely. We don't actually know. You know? It it could be that, you know, could be something terrible that they just, like, got I don't know. There their partner died over the weekend or something, and they're not gonna be able to, like, work as much as they thought. Do you know what I mean? that's kinda where I'm coming down on. But I understand where the question is coming from. Yeah. I I think I'm with you a 100%

  Ben Fineman [00:03:28]:

  except maybe taking what this therapist said about personal reasons at face value. I don't think I do that as much as you do because If it was personal reasons, I think you could say, I will likely be taking on new clients in a few months or in a year or something unless it's like I am leaving the field for good, in which case, you probably wouldn't be having, like, an intake session or consultation a week prior. Is it impossible? No. Is it unlikely? Yes. So I think -- Right. -- if we're sitting on our our chair of judgment here. I think the most likely scenario is for whatever reason, Perhaps that the client disclosed the BPD diagnosis, perhaps not. But for whatever reason, this therapist said, this is not a client I would like to take on. and said it was due to personal reasons because that's a way to play it safe in a way. Right. And I think that's just a no win situation for the therapist, but also for the client because it just sucks to be on the receiving end and have to speculate. But I also don't think it's bad therapy because therapists It is within their right to not take on a certain client. Yeah. It's just it just sought It just really sucks for the client when then you just have to speculate as to why when it may have nothing to do with you,

  Carrie Wiita [00:04:39]:

  but you can't know. and just sitting with that has to be kinda miserable. Well and this is this is, like, this eternal question that, like, we keep coming up against in various episodes from various angles. But this idea of, like, yeah, if you as a therapist decide after an intake session that you don't want to work with someone. How much do you share? Like, how transparent are you with them? And, you know, we've debated all of the things about, like, from, you know, protecting the client from the pain that would come with maybe knowing the truth, to, you know, but you don't want them you don't wanna lie and then have them find out that that was a lie. Like, you know, it's it's so thorny. And I feel like we has through all these conversations,

  Ben Fineman [00:05:27]:

  we have yet to come on, like, land on a good way to handle it. I I have I would like to throw out a pitch for a good way to handle it or at least -- -- please. -- like a preventative measure. Okay. Great. And I think this is also very relevant to today's episode, which is if you as the therapist know where your boundaries are in terms of clients you will and will not see, have that be communicated up front on your website somewhere? Yeah. where this is not something that you then have to fire a client over well into therapy. And, gosh, it gets at the the the idea in in our episode today that if a a client brings up questioning their faith or the idea of religious trauma, is it ever okay for the therapist to then fire client for those reasons, and, of course, not. But therapists can be upfront and say, there are certain clients I I don't work with so that this scenario is avoided as much as I think that's the solution. It doesn't mean this will never happen because I think that's that's impossible to prepare for every single hypothetical. But if you as a therapist know who you do and don't work with, you can be upfront about that and save everybody the hassle. In this case, the the emotional Struggl to be on the client end in here. I'm sorry. I can't see you for, quote, unquote, personal reasons, which

  Carrie Wiita [00:06:40]:

  Just sucks. You could do that, Ben, but that's not realistic. I mean, I think it'd be realistic if you're, like, for personal reasons, or I lacked the training to work with people who have been diagnosed with active PTSD. If you wanna put that on your on your website, like, I I think they like, yeah. Sure. Great. Awesome. But how many I have talked to plenty of therapists who say, that they don't want to work with somebody who has or has been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. And no therapist gonna put that on their website.

  Ben Fineman [00:07:16]:

  Yeah. Yep. You're right. Maybe we should do, like, a whole a whole study hall episode on, like, this

  Carrie Wiita [00:07:22]:

  this question.

  Ben Fineman [00:07:24]:

  This I mean, it does get into some pretty interesting

  Carrie Wiita [00:07:27]:

  Wait. That's not a bad idea. Because, literally, we keep this is the example we keep coming back to. It's it it is always therapists working with folks who've been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. We keep coming back to this. Maybe we should. Maybe I mean, like, look. We're so close to getting canceled as it is. with our current, like, rate of of scandalous shows, we may as well just dive into it.

  Ben Fineman [00:07:53]:

  I I like your your bucket all approach to our podcast now. Burn it down. And so with that in mind, today, we are diving into the not at all controversial topic of faith and religion and how that integrates into therapy. But, specifically, we have the privilege of talking with our guest Jeremy about his experiences of wanting to process some religious trauma with therapists and repeatedly being met by therapists who just felt the need to get defensive about their own faith. And then we bring on Josh Foster as our guest expert for today's episode to talk more about how to work with religious trauma, how a therapist can balance their own views versus a client's views if they're in contradiction, And the question that I'm not sure I got the answer I was looking for, can evangelical Christians ever be ethical therapist?

  Carrie Wiita [00:08:42]:

  Well, you didn't get it on the record. You did not get an answer on the record. Wait a minute. But that that implies that, like, when we weren't recording, he just -- Oh, No. That's not what it no. No. No. But, I mean, like, just like the p they just like therapists, like, you know, putting I'm not gonna work with people with borderline personality just wrote on our website. no one is gonna go out let no one is gonna go on the record and say, yeah, evangelical Christians can't be ethical therapist.

  Ben Fineman [00:09:07]:

  I I am willing to bet that a lot of therapists would go on record saying that very thing, but they are typically people who did not come from the Christian faith themselves. They are typically people who may just be deeply aggrieved by some of the politics behind evangelicalism, which -- Right. -- I don't carry. I think it's pretty fair.

  Carrie Wiita [00:09:28]:

  You're no. You're not wrong. You're not wrong, particularly after hearing Jeremy's story. Yeah.

  Ben Fineman [00:09:34]:

  I'm I'm not far from from co signing that statement. So -- Well, let's take an ad break and then continue our our fun controversial series of episodes here on very bad therapy. Hey, Ben. You know our other Ben, friend of the show Ben called well. Right? I do. He's been on our show several times, and I always appreciate the perspective and clarity that he brings. He's also been a strong advocate for pre licensed clinicians for many years.

  Carrie Wiita [00:10:01]:

  Well, it will not surprise you to know that he brings that same perspective and that same clarity to his license exam prep programs. I've actually had a chance to see those programs myself, and I really love that Ben is able to summarize the key elements of knowledge you need while also showing you a deep and detailed understanding of how the exams themselves work. His think like the test approach was really helpful for me to understand exactly how to do these tests. He's got scope of knowledge and an ability to teach from that knowledge that in my mind unparalleled.

  Ben Fineman [00:10:37]:

  I agree. And I think that if Ben Caldwell had an MCAT prep program, I might be a surgeon by now in making a lot more money than I am as a therapist. Yeah. That's probably true. Unfortunately,

  Carrie Wiita [00:10:47]:

  he does not have that program. But for us, therapists, He does have programs for all of the California BBS law and ethics exams, and for the California LMFT clinical exam with more programs in the works.

  Ben Fineman [00:11:00]:

  visit ncaldwelllabs.com for full details. That's benaldwelllabs.com.

  Carrie Wiita [00:11:15]:

  Today, we're excited to welcome to the show Jeremy. Jeremy, thank you for joining us today. Thanks for having me. I before we dig into your very bad therapy experience, Maybe we could start with giving us a little context for why you were seeking therapy, what brought you to therapy, wherever it makes sense for you to to jump in.

  Jeremy [00:11:37]:

  Sure. Yeah. So I was raised in evangelical Christianity back in the eighties nineties. So how to endure the satanic panic and and all of that. My my parents were very fundamentalist. You know, as a kid, what that meant for me was witnessing a lot of speaking in tongues, faith healing, a lot of talk about spiritual warfare. So, you know, sort of this concept that there's an invisible war going on and all our lives, and, you know, the Satan, the devil, is always one step behind behind us waiting for us to either slip up or, you know, it's it's very vague with the the what would cause, you know, anything bad to happen, and I think that intentional. Right? We were always kind of on edge, just making sure that we were right with God. And, you know, I remember for forgiveness every week if even if I couldn't think of something I did wrong because there was just that much fear instilled in us. So as a kid, I I experienced a lot of nightmares. At its worst, I started to develop sleep paralysis at about eleven or twelve years old. Yeah. It was it was tough I would get nightmares about being chased by just sort of black shadowy figures. and, you know, sleep paralysis for anyone who doesn't know, it usually takes place in the early morning hours where the sun is coming up. So your body's starting to wake up, but your mind is still deep in sleep. So what it looks like for you is you may you may be able to look around your room, but the dream that you're having still very real. Yeah. I was very, very terrifying. Where it crosses over into trauma is, you know, with with I think I don't wanna say typical family, but, you know, nonfundamentalist family, you know, a a child experience, and that would go to their parents and you know, look for look for comfort and, you know, the differences in a fundamentalist family, they believe that it's all real. So instead of being comforted, you're told while you're under attack. Right? So we need to pray for you.

  Carrie Wiita [00:13:39]:

  How old were you when this was when this was happening?

  Jeremy [00:13:43]:

  So started about eight or nine years old and continued through about 12 or 13 My saving grace was that I was still allowed to stay in public schools. So Sunday Wednesday, we were in church. That was my life. He was very real, but the rest of the time I was opposed to people of other faiths or no faith, had friends of all different backgrounds. So at about 13, when I started to get that sort of teenage angst, that's when I started to look around and really question, like, what if this is true and why don't my friends and the people at school believe the same things I do. So that, yeah, that really helped me to sort of move past the the nightmare stage and just you know, threw me into a kind of a confusion stage where I I just really didn't like going to church anymore. It was just it was it was still scary to see adults speaking in tongues, but at the same time, at that age, I was able to sort of throw some cynicism in there and say, you know, look at these look at these people, the crazy things they're doing, right, and kinda separate myself from it. Yeah. So throughout my teenage years, that's when I started to become skeptical. I loved science at school, but my parents would disconnect me from it at home. So but I still think I developed a skeptical mind to where I I saw a real disconnect between what I was being told on Sunday and what I saw in the world the rest of the week. in my early twenties, I did what a lot of Christians do and I started to seek more moderate faith communities going these different churches. Like, on Dave Matthews, churches. So if you think, like, early 2000, right, you walk in, there's a dozen musicians on stage. We are rocking out for 30 minutes. And then the sermon is less fire and brimstone and it's more just sort of feathery personal growth self help with a few really nice bible verses peppered through the through the sermon. So, you know, that got me through my twenties. And then for about 8 years, I just backed off of it completely and just felt like, look. This there's more of the life that I need to figure out, and I didn't feel like I needed that in my life at the time. So, yeah, I kinda let it be until I was 35. I was diagnosed with 80 HD, really questioning every area of my life. That's where I learned about incongruents. And oh my god, that word took over my that period of my life because I felt like every area of my life was in congruent with who I felt I was. The ADHD diagnosis answered so many questions for me. And, yeah, that, you know, part of the incongruence is what I believe spiritually. And so that is where I first started to go, okay. What are these evil scientists actually saying. Right? What are what are the evil psychologist saying is really happening in my brain. You know? So, yeah, that kind of freed me from it. until about early forties, and that's where I felt like I I still had some trauma going on I went back to school to become a therapist, and my first experience of sort of bringing that trauma back sort of triggering it was My my wife and I moved to the Midwest, Aurora area, and Evangelicism is prominent there. So a lot of these things just began to surface again.

  Ben Fineman [00:17:02]:

  And was was that what ultimately led you to seek out your own therapy was was kind of this this wanting to feel things were were more settled and more can grow for you, especially being in an area where the evangelical values were much more present for you than perhaps you even wanted them to be.

  Jeremy [00:17:21]:

  Yeah. And so Prior about 5 years prior to moving to the Midwest, I I was going through therapy myself. I was learning to manage my ADHD. I was I was learning about just the human mind, and I became fascinated with psychology. And it it gave me a good foundation. I mean, first of all, I have to say it was such a relief to have questions and not have them be met with while you just have to have faith that we're telling the truth, it was Here's what we think is right. We're not a 100% sure, but here's the evidence backing up what we know. And I learned it helped me get out of that black and white thinking model. so that I was okay with some gray areas. So that foundation helped provide sort of like a coat of armor going in going back into the evangelism where even though I felt those memories coming back, I felt that feeling of trauma in body, I was able to logically work work through a lot of it and kinda separate myself from

  Carrie Wiita [00:18:20]:

  So I just I wanna be clear on the timeline. So you it would did you say you started doing therapy first of all, were you diagnosed in therapy with with ADHD? Yes. Okay. Great. So you were in therapy with someone. And I'm assuming that is not the bad therapy experience in question. It is not. Okay. The positive life changing experience where someone finally understood me. Okay. Right. So then that was the before your move to the Midwest. Correct? That was from about age 35 to, like, 3738,

  Jeremy [00:18:54]:

  and then you know, I was 38 when we moved to the Midwest. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Great. And so this was the point at which you were

  Carrie Wiita [00:19:01]:

  becoming starting to become a a therapist yourself. Right? Had you already entered grad school?

  Jeremy [00:19:05]:

  So 2018, I started online grad school. And, yeah, it was 2019 when I began my internship, and that's really when this resurfaced because I was working at a small group practice in a rural town and my clinical supervisor, I believe she was raised as the daughter of a Baptist minister, but had deconstructed and now is very secular spiritual. So still carry that that idea of yeah, spirituality and and supernatural everywhere that it was really that became my first experience of bad therapy was as a clinician trying provide care when I was trying to provide evidence based care. And, yeah, she was she was I have a great story of this. If you don't mind me sharing thing. So -- Yeah. Please. -- it's it's sad in eye opening. One of my first clients was a teenage girl who was beginning to develop hallucination Her mom was with her in session and said she was diagnosed with schizophrenia in high school. And So it was mostly auditory hallucinations for this client. But a few times, she thought she had seen her deceased grandparents in her open bedroom closet. So had 2 sessions just exploring what she was experiencing and then thought it completely appropriate to refer her out for a Psychevel. I met with my clinical supervisor and thought it was gonna be straightforward and just gave her the rundown of of my notes and she stopped me just cold and said, do you think this is schizophrenia? And I said, yeah. I think she meets all the DSM criteria. I mean, let's let's go get her evaluated. She said, so what tell what is how are you convinced that these hallucinations are real? And I said, well, what do you I I believe she is hallucinating. She she tells me she is. I believe her. She says, no. You do believe in spirits, and I said, no. As a matter of fact, I don't. And she said, well, there's something called the site. It is a it's a gift from god. So she believed that all of these hallucinations were real. This was a gift that this this teenage girl had, and that the best course of action was to suggest that she volunteered a funeral home as a medium to help people communicate with their deceased loved ones. I

  Ben Fineman [00:21:30]:

  mean, I'm I'm just speechless at especially and I I I know you have your own experiences of of similar I mean, maybe not similar, but of bad therapy related to spiritual religious trauma, spiritual trauma, and how the -- Yeah. -- therapists focus on it. So I don't wanna go too far into the weeds on this, but I am so blown away what what it must have been like given the power dynamic that exists when you are a supervisee -- Ah. -- and you can't just push back against what a supervise or says and in this case, you have somebody who's going way outside of the scope of what a therapist should be doing -- Right. -- especially with potentially severe mental illness in favor of something that is just grounded entirely in faith, which we don't traffic in when it comes to what to do when a client presents with hallucination. you have to stay in our scope of competence. Even if you have, like, an evangelical background, like, that is not what you're doing as a licensed therapist or supervisor. So I'm just blown away at what it must have been like for you -- Yeah. -- to sit there and even know what to do in that situation.

  Jeremy [00:22:33]:

  You know, it was obviously shocking at first, but what brought up my past was that even though she was more secular spiritual, there was a lot of parallels with the the evangelical Christianity I grew up with. So When I said, no. I don't believe in spirits. She loved a personal attack. Well, as counselors, we need to be open minded for all possibilities. Right? So that's that's a character flaw on my part. When I said that I felt like it was unethical, her suggestion was unethical that we needed to to get her professional help again, it was it was more along the lines of how dare you doubt my experience. What I ended up doing with this specific client is I met her and her mom in parking lot. I gave them the information, you know, where they can get a psych eval. And I had to go behind my supervisor's back and from that point on. Obviously, my relationship with my supervisor wasn't the same. And there were other clinicians in the office who, you know, One was a ghost hunter on the side, and, you know, 111 brought Reiki into the into sessions. And so it was very I was not supported in that environment. I was the only one that even used the words evidence based.

  Carrie Wiita [00:23:46]:

  Okay. I just wanna like, I know we're not gonna go off into the weeds. on this, and we're gonna take your story. But I just wanna say that is an incredible amount of strength and wherewithal as a grad student, new therapist. I don't know if I don't know. I have no idea what I would have done. I have no idea what I would have done. I would have felt the same way you felt. I'm not sure I would have had the strength to just immediately be like, oh, well, this is some bullshit. I'm going to do the safe and ethical thing and take this into my own hand. That's amazing.

  Jeremy [00:24:16]:

  Thank you. It it took time to absorb all of this, obviously. What really gave me strength was again, seeing these parallels, right? I've been down this road, right? In Christianity when you question the faith, something's wrong with you. you know, it it's either how dare you or it it is the the virtue of faith, right, where it's not only good to have faith but it's it's encouraged. And so, yeah, I've I've been there before. It was obviously just bullshit, and so I I At that said so my my master's program did a great job of instilling, you know, the do no harm, you know, do the best can for your clients. And so I think that's what really motivated me to just do an end around and, like, yeah, advocate for the client.

  Carrie Wiita [00:25:04]:

  So Were you still in therapy at yourself at this time, or did you go back to therapy yourself? Like, how did that how did that work?

  Jeremy [00:25:14]:

  After I finished school, I went back to therapy. Just realized I could not deal with this religious trauma on my own. Through my own sort of exploration with just reading, listening to podcasts, I learned about the secular therapy project which can help match you with a secular therapist regardless of where you are. So I started let me step back Before I found out about the secular therapy project, I looked up 2 local therapists. And both of those experiences were very invalidating. You know, they they started out well. They were they were open to hearing about my trauma. but both of them really dismissed it as, like, well, those those weren't true Christians you threw up with. And You know? It's yeah. It's not all not all churches are like that. So you just you feel dismissed, and immediately I shut down personally. That's kind of my defense mechanism is like, I'm not safe talking about this. here. So, you know, one terminated with me because she was irate that I even I even called religious trauma a trauma. And then the second one who was very accommodating, I terminated with him through email just because I I knew that I going to get anywhere.

  Carrie Wiita [00:26:35]:

  Okay. So wait. This was so you were in therapy as a client with with therapists. Right? These are not like pastoral counselors these are not. Like so maybe we could go 1 by 1. You're saying that, like, when you, as a client in therapy, were saying, you know, talking about the trauma that you had experienced. Mhmm. And you were calling it religious trauma. they were pushing back by saying, oh, well, that's not not not all Christians are like that.

  Jeremy [00:27:07]:

  it would start out where they were I could see they were making an effort to to be accepting and just to understand you know, they could see it on my face that this was affecting me, but there was just this tendency. Sometimes it was after two sessions, sometimes five 6, where they had to interject a disclaimer for the rest of Christianity that what I experienced wasn't true, Chris Genity. Right? So that's where they may have thought they were doing their own beliefs of service, but they were invalidating their client.

  Ben Fineman [00:27:41]:

  I guess that's that's what I'm most curious about is that feeling you named the invalidation. What about that? Are you was bad therapy? Why did it make you say this isn't what I'm looking for.

  Jeremy [00:27:53]:

  It reminded me of those pastors I I talked to growing up who said they encouraged questioning. They encouraged open mindedness. But when push come to shove and I had some really good questions for them, that things were not making sense for me, they would push back with, well, you don't have enough faith, or why are you being rebellious? Right? It was on me something was wrong with me, and all of that just came rushing back when I heard, well, these weren't true Christians. Right? it doesn't take away from the fact that they were teaching me out of the bible and, you know, and and in my eyes now being on the side of Christianity. I mean, fundamentalists really follow it to a t. Everyone sort of filters out sections of the bible they don't think applies to to modern life. But, you know, yeah, I think fundamentalists, they they take it literally, obviously, and then more moderate Christians tend to separate themselves from those others, right, as, like, they they have a more evolved concept of Christianity. And so I think in their minds, they were trying to put me in that other group, which again is like that's not where I was at. Even if I'm in another group in your mind, what I'm presenting is very real well.

  Carrie Wiita [00:29:13]:

  What was it like for you as a client to be trying to share the extent of that like, damage and how that hurt you and to have them push back with this defense of their faith. where did that leave you as a client in the room?

  Jeremy [00:29:33]:

  So the first experience left me really blindsided. you know, she had LGBTQ affirming on her website. It's oddly there is I mean, it's a good thing, but it's progress there's a lot of religious people in the Midwest who are starting to be more accepting of LGBTQ folks, but it's sort of like a conditional love. Right? They it's it's their that that philosophy of, you know, hate the sin, love the sinner. They think they're being accepting, but they're still really pushing these people into into a a minority and a marginalized group. So that's how that's how I it was blindsided that I felt like I was walking into some some therapy that would be very open and accepting. And and, yeah, I got this pushback that just threw me right back to being a a kid and you know, hearing people speaking in tongues and falling on the floor.

  Ben Fineman [00:30:24]:

  It kind of sounds like those first two therapists you described We're there for you. We're willing to help you and support you as long as, at the end of the day, you fit into how they saw the world as opposed to them setting aside how they saw the world and trying to support you in how you saw the world or helping you discover how you saw the world. It seems like that that's the distinction is with those first two therapists, if you didn't fit into their world view -- Mhmm. -- at some point, you were gonna realize it because they would say something that made it clear that you weren't welcome to be whole self in there, and they would have to try and almost fix something for you to make you see how things should be.

  Jeremy [00:31:00]:

  Yeah. That's that's exactly right. And and that's why the experience with the 2nd therapist I walked in and guarded, you know, I was expecting that perspective of, you know, because it's these these beliefs are so personally, you know, powerful and and you know, when you're when you're in it, it's you against the world literally. And it's just so hard to to separate yourself to take something that you hold so dearly and then have someone come into your office and say this is the worst thing that ever happened to me. and it was traumatic and just had such a negative impact on me that it's yeah, I think it's almost like a protective reaction to say, well, that wasn't what I believe in, so I'm good. Right? My beliefs are good. It's not me.

  Carrie Wiita [00:31:53]:

  I'm curious how the the therapist you you said earlier, I think. that one of them terminated with you because you used the word religious trauma? Yeah. How did that happen?

  Jeremy [00:32:07]:

  So initially, I just talked about trauma, and she said she was trauma informed. And, you know, that I believe she did EMDR and CPT. I was pushing for CPT because, again, like, evidence based, I I'm on the fence about EMDR. did listen to your recent podcast on it, which was excellent. So sort of confirms some of my some of my prior notions about it. But, yeah, she was very accepting, very warm. And when I started talking about growing up in church, I remember kinda smiling and and lighting up like, oh, good. You grew up in church, but, you know, it quickly took a turn, and I started to explain what I had experienced, what I witnessed, what impact it had on my psyche as a young person just constantly on edge. I mean, to be told that that Satan is is one step behind you waiting for you to sin, even if there was even if they they there was some metaphor when you're eight years old, it is reality. Right? So, yeah, for her to hear that from me, I could see her putting a wall up And that is when the the defensiveness came out, and she just left and right was was defending Her Christianity is not being my Christianity, and so, therefore, my experience wasn't due to growing up in church. Yeah. And so that's yeah. By the end of the first session, you could tell she wasn't having it, and then I got a an email and, quote, shortly after saying she was terminating.

  Ben Fineman [00:33:42]:

  It's so interesting to hear you frame it that way because it makes me think we've had other episodes on the show, some that we've already aired, some that are still in the works, where there's a story we hear from a client where something about what they are questioning or curious about or their personal views hits such a nerve with a therapist, and it's not just that the therapist feels differently. It's that it's part of their personal identity. And so if the client is questioning it, the therapist is almost incapable of setting aside how they feel about that particular topic, in this case, religion for you. And just being there as a therapist, it seems like at that point, she switched into an advocate for her faith to try and get you to see the actual truth thinking that that was in your best interest because she was so sure that she was right about it. Yeah. And it seems like that is where bad therapy is is almost guaranteed to happen. is that either she she kind of convinces you to see the world from her perspective, which is never gonna be good therapy, or she pushes against how you are feeling or questioning things, and that's never gonna be good therapy. So it just it feels like there's that moment where if a therapist is incapable of separating their personal views or beliefs from what the client is bringing in or from their own identity then there is a a big kind of, like, warning sign that goes off unless you as the client ultimately end up agreeing and finding community and support, and then it's gonna be the best therapy ever. It's like the error bar is just, like, you know, the what is it? The the standard the the bell curve. It just, like, flattens. And there's no medium therapy. It's either, like, terrible

  Carrie Wiita [00:35:22]:

  That's, like, inverted bell curve? I don't know. You all know what I'm saying. No. There is no. There is a name for that. Yes. I forgot what it is. Yes. I can't remember. Yeah.

  Ben Fineman [00:35:30]:

  But, anyway, Jeremy, I'm curious because I know when you reached out to us, you said that there are 3 experiences that you had that were kind of along these lines. And I think we've only touched on the first 2. So what was what was the third one where it was almost the same kind of process?

  Jeremy [00:35:45]:

  So the third one was after my wife, and I moved back home to Denver, and I had launched my private practice and really just still felt the impact of my experience and wanted to work it out. And I thought, hey. It's a it's more progressive city. I'm gonna find some some great clinicians out here, and there are a ton of great clinicians. But the one I I happen to choose who I was unfamiliar with, yeah, he he said he worked with trauma, very evidence based, We started working through cognitive processing theory. It went great for 4 to 5 sessions, And part of it was sort of narrative work where you write as much as you can about your experience. And I think I've sent some some discomfort from him when I really unloaded every detail I could think of from my upbringing and then also incorporated some of my experience in the Midwest into that. And I believe it was session 6. I just got a quick disclaimer. Not all Christians are like that. Yeah, I know that and I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is my experience in Christianity was x And I got another disclaimer later on, not all churches are like that. Maybe you should find a church that's more, you know, more progressive, more modern. So then I start to put my defenses up a bit. And at the end of the 6th session, he asked where I was spiritually and how important it was to be spiritual. Right? And we know now that spirituality can be really anything that sort of helps us make sense of our lives of the world, of our place in it. Some provide these peak experiences. Some some don't, and I just said right now, I I guess I consider myself a secular humanist. In terms of god, I am a theist, but I, you know, I'm always open again to evidence, right? But it has to be evidence And and and that's when he kind of just got up on a soapbox and and said, you know, I grew up without religion, and I found it later in life, and I just don't understand how you can have a moral compass without you know, without a a religious foundation in your life. So straight up preaching.

  Carrie Wiita [00:38:05]:

  So had this therapist you you had mentioned that you'd written a lot, done a lot of writing about your experiences, including the experiences you'd had in the in the Midwest. Yeah. So had you written about your experiences in therapy where you had been, like, invalidated in session?

  Jeremy [00:38:22]:

  No. Okay. So where this came up was when we were identifying my stuck points. And I would say something like if my parents hadn't raised me in that particular version of Christianity, then I may not have had these these nightmares and these these dispute vision of of the world, and he would say that's when he would jump in and say, well, you know, not all churches are like that, so don't discount Christianity altogether. And I just I didn't understand. I mean, I was mad at this point. I was just thinking to myself, why why do you have to throw that in there? You know, why can't they just be your belief, but your client has a different experience.

  Carrie Wiita [00:39:03]:

  What was going through your head or what were you feeling? when this therapy session, should have been a therapy session, turns into him, your therapist, preaching at you.

  Jeremy [00:39:16]:

  Just disappointment. You know, I had just entered this field and I I felt like the further I got into therapy as a therapist, as a clinician, the more of that evidence base foundation I would find, but I was disappointed that spirituality still seems to get a pass you know, it's it's one of those things that you're not supposed to talk about, you're not supposed to disparage because that's their lived experience and who are we to question it. Right? So it's one thing to to say it's obviously unethical to to make these comments to a client you know, for whatever reason. But, you know, just as a clinician, I guess, is is whether it's religious or just the secular spirituality? I I still just don't understand why that gets a free pass that it doesn't have to be evidence based. It can just feel good. You know?

  Ben Fineman [00:40:12]:

  Do you have trust issues with I mean, it's a bit tongue and cheek, but do you have trust issues with therapists now that no matter what they say on their website or or how good therapy is going that at some point, They're gonna, like, scooby doo style, pull off the mask. And it turns out they're just gonna be preaching about Christianity as opposed to kind of centering your experience in therapy?

  Jeremy [00:40:34]:

  Yeah. You know, I mentioned the secular therapy project earlier, when I found that I wasn't able to connect with a therapist at that point because it was, you know, during the tail end of the pandemic, everyone was so booked. So I have put off even contacting them because I just I just don't know who is clips to to work through this.

  Carrie Wiita [00:40:57]:

  You know? I'm I'm well, I'm so I'm so grateful that you're sharing this these experiences. It's so frustrating that you've had, like, the same experience. like, over and over again. But I do think I what you said about, like, religion Christianity getting a free pass, like, You know, I I think it's not something that is you're right. Like, I don't think we get enough of an emphasis on it as, like, therapists and training. I think I think we I think we very strongly get the message that if if a client has strong religious beliefs, And if they're different from yours, like, we're given, like, some tools and some thoughts. And no matter what orientation, theoretical orientation you're taking, given some direction about, like, how to how to sit with and hold space with a client who has very strongly different views than you. But I can't remember it ever being really kind of explored in our in in my training, certainly. how a clinician needs to maybe work through or, like, understand their own spiritual life and do work around not bringing that into the room so that it, like, negatively impacts the client. From your experience, What would you ask I mean, asking you to to to say how to train therapists is not a fair question. But what would you say to therapists who, you know, who whose religious beliefs are very important to them. It's part of their identity. having been a client in that room multiple times now, like, what would you want them to know? How would you want them to work or change something or what would you want them to think about?

  Jeremy [00:42:44]:

  I want them to think about their clients. You know, it's it's not about you as a clinician. if something has really helped you in your life spiritually, that that's great, but Yeah. I look at your client. Notice your client. So I have Christian clients now, and I still use my Christian background to help relate to them and and and help them incorporate it where they see fit, which tells me that it is absolutely possible for us to put aside our position on it and and meet the client where they are.

  Ben Fineman [00:43:20]:

  It makes me think of some you had said a few minutes ago, Jeremy, where that last therapist we talked about was saying that you couldn't have a moral compass without a religious foundation. And and that is the opposite of what you're describing where he's not meeting you or you're at. He's assuming he has some universal truth that you have to fit into. And it feels like such a subtle but important distinction between saying, how could you have a moral compass without a religious foundation and asking a question tell me more about how you found your own sense of morality after your purse like, it's in a in a way it's the same question, but without the certainty that -- Yes. -- viewpoint is right, and it shouldn't be that big of an ask. It really shouldn't.

  Jeremy [00:44:02]:

  I completely agree That's a great way of putting it. If he had phrased it that way, I would have been more open to share to sharing you know, and and it's you know, like, at that point, I kinda rolled my eyes because, you know, thinking the irony is you he said he grew up without religion and without spirituality. But then he kinda went into that same story. A lot of people who who convert to religions do where they were a bad person were making all these bad decisions, and then they found their faith. And now everything's great. But, yeah, just phrasing it in a way that that's exploratory and curious Yeah. I absolutely would have opened up and just just I'd probably still be working with him.

  Carrie Wiita [00:44:44]:

  I have a question that I'm gonna completely fumble because I I was not raised with religion, and so I'm I'm sure if my head is full of, like, assumptions or, like, things I've heard or whatever. But From what I've heard, it sounds like especially in Christianity. I know this is true for many many face, but especially in Christianity, there is Part of the messaging is the that you have, like, responsibility to take your faith everywhere you go and, like, that you are somehow, like and I think it varies by, like, whether you are strongly evangelical or or not, but you have some kind of a responsibility to spread the word. And this whole conversation is making me think, I bet it's really hard. I'm not I'm not defending these therapists at all because it's completely unethical. But I bet it's pretty hard for somebody who whose faith is very important to them, who believes that that's part of what they should be doing with their life. And then they for whatever reason, they decide to become a therapist. and work with clients who aren't of that faith. Do you have any advice coming from, like, the unique background that you come from? how somebody like that might be able to kind of hold both of those duties or responsibilities, like, to faith, but also to therapy, like laws and ethics?

  Jeremy [00:46:09]:

  It's incredibly difficult because, you know, as you alluded to, I mean, we are raised to believe that coincidentally, we were born into the one true faith. Right? No one else got it right, but we did. And so that means it is like I said, us against the world. So I was taught that my friends at school were lost. My my neighbors you know, everyone in our community that didn't adhere to our beliefs. You know, some would say going to hell. Others would say need to be saved. yeah, and you are taught that your faith takes priority over everything everything. And so That is, yeah, that is a big concern. Right? Because when you're taught that, you're throughout your entire life, and then you become a therapist. of course, that fits into therapy too. Right? So when you see someone who has fallen in quotes out of Christianity, now they're lost. They need saving. and it is my job to be the one to save them. And, you know, obviously, all of this is on a very broad spectrum. So you have the more fundamentalist who are going to bring it into every session. That is what they think the cure is for all of society's Ils. You have people in the middle who are able to sort of hold it back. May you know, they're probably relieved when they get Christian clients and so then they're able to share a bit and have that in common. And then the more moderate Christians and progressive Christians, I think they just focus on this, what they call the the personal relationship with God. Right? So the more progressive you get on the continuum, the less you're going to preach it people, and the more it is just something personally valuable to you. And so, you know, it's yeah. It just depends where they fall on that spectrum, but you're right. It just comes down to ethics You know, I I had young clients when I was in the Midwest who were coming to see me after spending time in faith based counseling, which most of them are not licensed. You can just put counselor on the door and then start to see people. And you have people struggling with sexuality, struggling with, you know, divorce of their parents, seeing alcoholism in their family, and they're they're they're given the same prescription every time was you just need more Jesus. And especially younger people today, they so much information at their fingertips that they they come in and they say, this is not solving my problems. What what can you do to help me through this? And Yeah. So again, it's and and I go back to the difference between respecting people's beliefs and then recognizing when you're you've crossed the line now. Right? Now this is this is about you, not your client.

  Ben Fineman [00:48:52]:

  I think that's that's a great note to end on. Thank you, Jeremy. This has been fantastic. Are you interested in in kinda putting your own name out there and your own practice information in case people wanna reach out and potentially receive accounts where at session 6 or 7, there is no shocking reveal.

  Jeremy [00:49:13]:

  but it was faith based counseling all along. Absolutely. And I will reiterate that I do my absolute best to stay nonjudgmental and not bring my own perspectives into session. So I do have Christian clients that have had good outcomes with me and so my private practice is called One Life Counseling. Website is 1lifecounseling.co. I'm located in Denver in the Central Park area, but I do tell health.

  Ben Fineman [00:49:38]:

  So Yeah. I am fully on my practice, so I do have room now. Wonderful. And if anybody listening wants to say thank you by way of donating to a charity that you support, Is there one that you would like to mention?

  Jeremy [00:49:50]:

  Secular therapy project. I think they're doing great work, and I I do plan on connecting with them now to work through my own stuff.

  Carrie Wiita [00:49:57]:

  Great. We will have links to that on the show notes and website and also to Jeremy's practice. Jeremy, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you both. Hey, listeners. Thank you as always for listening, and for all the ways you support the show, whether that's by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, or by joining our Patreon page, where for $5 a month, you get access to our special bonus episodes. For our most recent release, Ben and I invented a whole new therapeutic approach, and we came up with a plan to make millions. Check it out at patreon.com/verybadtherapy.

  Ben Fineman [00:50:42]:

  And if you've been listening to our episodes lately, you've heard me shout out Santiago Counseling Center, which is a low fee online therapy clinic in the state of California. At Cynthia, they provide wonderful trauma informed services to people throughout the state of California. So if you are looking for affordable high quality therapy services, or if you're a therapist looking to send clients to a place that has reliable availability and excellent counselors, Send them to sentiocc.org to get started. We'll have links to that on the website and show notes. Alright, Carrie. Let's jump back in. And we're very happy to welcome Josh Foster to the show to help kinda explore some of Jeremy's experience and provide some context So, Josh, thanks so much for joining us, and we'd love to have you start just by introducing yourself and some of your background.

  Josh Foster [00:51:29]:

  Thank you. Yeah. I'm I'm super excited to be here with you guys. My name is Josh Wasser. I'm a licensed clinical professional counselor in Maryland and Pennsylvania. And I really work I tried to do a lot of work with people who have suffered religious trauma. It's it's part of my own story. And so when I decided to become a therapist, that was that was an area that I really was passionate about helping people make sense of, you know, heal from. And so I I've About half of the people that I see in my practice are trying to deal with trauma that they experienced from from her luncheon.

  Carrie Wiita [00:52:16]:

  I'm so excited to talk to you about this today because I I mean, I just have so many questions, obviously, about Jeremy's experience. But maybe we could start with what kind of stood out for you? Like, where would you like to start kind of responding to Jeremy's experience?

  Josh Foster [00:52:32]:

  there were so many times when I was listening to his interview where I was just shaking my head or saying, oh, no. Oh, no. Please. No. Please. You didn't say that. Did you as a you know, just with how therapists the things that they said to him Yeah. I found myself just personally relating to a lot of of Jeremy's experiences, just his background and I I just really wanna say that it takes so much courage to even begin asking questions. like he did. Because when you start asking questions with when you're part of a faith community, of a church and you start asking questions, it does not take long before you're labeled the troublemaker before you know, you possibly get kicked out of the church or organization or what whatever it is because you're taught from a young age that asking questions is bad. It's a it's a sign of a lack of faith And so I just I just really was struck by how much courage it takes I'm in awe of the courage it takes with the people that I work with with Jeremy to just begin asking questions. And so I wanted to make sure that we acknowledge that because if you haven't experienced a change of faith, a loss of faith, I I don't know if you can really understand just how disorienting that is to an individual.

  Ben Fineman [00:54:12]:

  There were a lot of things that Jeremy described that to me seem very hard to comprehend, not sharing a background. that that you and he have both come from. I think the first thing I wanted to get your perspective on and maybe it's the thing that stands out the most because it was specific to his experience becoming a therapist. Right? He's in training. He's got a client who's presenting the symptoms of schizophrenia. And the supervisor says, oh, this is a gift. This is the site, and we should get this person to a funeral home to help connect patrons of the funeral home with their loved ones. And to me, I'm thinking this there's no way that this fits into our ethics codes as therapists. But I also want to leave space for the fact that maybe I'm just missing some way to integrate certain interpretations of faith with therapy. is it ever ethical for a supervisor or even a therapist to just kind of dismiss symptoms of schizophrenia as as a gift as something positive that a client can channel and not look at as a pathology?

  Josh Foster [00:55:14]:

  No. I was shocked by that. And look, I know that as therapists, we all have days when we're not at our best. And any criticism of the therapist You know, I I wanna remember that I've been shown kindness and and to say that. You know? But yeah. And I just don't understand. in what world that's okay to suggest as a form of treatment

  Ben Fineman [00:55:46]:

  It seems like you're trying to be very generous to the supervisor in this scenario. But I think it's at at some point, generosity runs out if there's a risk of of harming a client by not getting them adequate treatment for something as serious as visual hallucinations of potentially schizophrenia it seems like that's the part that got me when Jeremy was describing his experience that it seems like in some scenarios, there's no room for both being an ethical therapist. and carrying some, like, evangelical Christian viewpoints into therapy. At some point, there is a clash. They are mutually exclusive, and you have to pick 1. And if you're a therapist, I would think you have to pick the ethics codes of our field.

  Josh Foster [00:56:24]:

  And that's not even an evangelical idea, the site. like that, no, that would be heretical. And so I have no idea where this this supervisor was going with that. You know, clearly, it's something that she believes that humans can actually have as a gift. Is that possible? Sure. I'm I'm not gonna at this point in my own faith story, I don't rule anything out. You know? But I just No. To give that as a mode of treatment, as next steps, as a suggested thing to explore when when Jeremy is is saying, hey. I I think, you know, we need to rule this out. We need to get a a professional to work with this girl to to know. I I I would think as a supervisor, you you have to say, okay. This is this is the person that I'm supervising, they are with the client. I'm gonna listen to them, and I wanna hear what they're saying and take that into account to dismiss it. In that way, I must that must have been so discouraging for Jeremy and to feel unheard and the fact that he had to go behind his supervisors back to meet the client and and her mom in the parking lot to to give them the resources. I mean, thank goodness that Jeremy had that much courage and forethought, you know, to think about how do I how do I do this? But, yeah, to have to do that is is just terribly discouraging.

  Carrie Wiita [00:58:10]:

  One of the things that I'm struck by, like, now that I'm thinking about this is the all the kind of ways that faith beliefs imposed themselves in the therapy room for Jeremy both as a trainee than also as a client. And, Ben, I I think your question is so interesting about, like, you know, if you are coming into the room with a set of of religious beliefs, how do you square that with your, you know, legal ethical obligations of of the license that you hold as a therapist. And it reminds me of the experience that Jeremy had with the with a therapist who was not going it was nowhere near as egregious as a like, an intrusion into the room. Right? It wasn't, you know, in insisting on on some supernatural powers or something. But that therapist did make a point of saying not all not all Christians, not all, you know, when Jeremy was trying to share his experience of religious trauma. And I think that that is an interesting example of, like because I don't know where the line is. But as a therapist who has their own religious or faith tradition that is part of their life, what is the right way for a therapist to balance that in the room just in general? but also particularly when you're dealing with a client who's experienced religious trauma.

  Josh Foster [00:59:38]:

  I mean, my first my first thought is that for me personally, I lived for almost 40 years within a system that was an eitheror system. And so when you say the right way, part of me wants to say, like, I I think that there are more than than a good well, I guess what I'm trying to say is there's probably more than one way. You know? And I am trying to eliminate either or thinking in my life in all areas. But I I think it's never okay to as a therapist to see therapy as a place to be a defender for god, for the church, Christians, any faith You listen to what people are bringing with them. You validate. You show empathy. And that is the exact opposite of what those therapists did. You know, when they when they said not all Christians are like that, Why do you think you need to say that? Why do you think you need to defend the faith? I'm not I'm not surprised by it. on one hand, on on the other, I I am surprised by it. I mean, when I was in grad school, I just remember, there were no conversation about how to incorporate faith into therapy unless they were ones that honestly, that I started conversations that I started in in my classes, I was at a phase in grad school where I was asking questions where I was deconstructing some of my own faith. So, you know, if a therapist if they aren't taught to how to work with faith in therapy, then they bring their own experiences in. And, you know, in Evangelicalism, bringing people to faith into god's kingdom is is paramount. Like, there's nothing else that's higher than that. And so for whatever reason, you know, these these therapists felt like that was appropriate thing to say, and it's it's just It's not.

  Carrie Wiita [01:02:05]:

  Do you have do you have any advice for therapists who, you know, listening to this? who may be recognizing themselves in this exchange between Jeremy and their and the therapist. and that they are bringing strong feelings and strong beliefs into the therapy room, how can they remain true and authentic and, like, you know, to who they are, but also not cause the harm that these therapists did to their client.

  Josh Foster [01:02:36]:

  In my mind, when you know, so I I have people that I'm working with right now who are Christians of of many different faiths, actually. And so I I say to them, you know, I will incorporate faith as much or as little as you want, the therapy room is not a place to be evangelizing to clients. It's a place to listen to what they're saying. The pain that they've gone through their experiences and to I'm sorry. This question for some reason is really it's I'm having a hard time answering it. I think that, no, it's like, you can't evangelize your clients. You do You don't have to be a defender of your faith. If your faith needs defending in a therapy session, If you need to be a defender for god, then I would say your god's pretty small. It's honestly what I would say. but I also understand why therapists would do that because it's what you're taught in evangelicalism that, yeah, sharing faith, nothing is more important than that. but I also know many wonderful therapists who are Christians who would be just shocked at how these therapists responded to Jeremy. My supervisor, for many of my clinical hours, is a Christian, and I think she's a wonderful therapist. I would have no problem. I have no problem. you know, recommending her as someone to to work with. And so Yeah. I I have friends who are Christian therapists who I I just know would not take that approach. And so, hopefully, these therapists have have learned, but, yeah, it was shocking it was also shocking to me that 1 of the therapists terminated Jeremy because he used the phrase religious trauma and that Yeah. That was shocking.

  Ben Fineman [01:05:02]:

  I'm glad you brought that up because I found it shocking, but I also don't really know much about this topic And so maybe it's just not that uncommon that that's simply words that you cannot say to somebody of a certain faith. So I'd love to hear you expand a bit on what what about that was shocking to you. And and was there any part of you that maybe wasn't all that surprised just given what you know about the overlap between evangelicalism and therapy.

  Josh Foster [01:05:31]:

  Yeah. I mean, on one hand, it it's surprise. me. On the other, it didn't because yeah. I frequently when I tell people that I I work with religious trauma, I frequently see a look of confusion come over their face of just like, well, how How can religion cause trauma? And in my mind, it's like well, how can it not? you know, there's there's many ways for it to do that. I had 30 some years experiences of that that happening. You know, so I frequently get asked that question. So not all therapists are familiar with the idea that that religion can cause trauma. Like I said, you know, in grad school, there was little to no conversations about that. But let's see. I wanted to look up a definition of religious trauma.

  Ben Fineman [01:06:36]:

  while you're doing that. I I just wanted to point out my my own amusement that we're talking about Jeremy's story when his therapist were saying, not all Christians are like that. And now we're having this conversation. It's like, nope. Not all therapists are like that. But that is kind of the point of our show as we hear about the bad therapists, and then we say, But overall, the field's actually pretty great. Alright. So, hopefully, Jeremy is not listening to the summer going, those motherfuckers.

  Josh Foster [01:07:04]:

  So Marlene Wennell is the person who really is is the therapist to coin this phrase religious trauma syndrome. And so her website is journeyfree.org, and the definition you know, it's it's a mouthful, but the definition that she has on her website is religious trauma syndrome is the condition experienced by people who are struggling with lay leaving an authoritarian, dogmatic religion, and coping with the damage of indoctrination. they may be going through the shattering of a personally meaningful faith and or breaking away from a controlling community and lifestyle. religious trauma syndrome is a function of both the chronic abuses of harmful religion and the impact of severing one's connection with one with one's faith. It can be compared to a combination of PTSD and complex PTSD.

  Carrie Wiita [01:08:06]:

  is the term itself, religious trauma, is that something that is commonly understood to be deeply offensive?

  Josh Foster [01:08:15]:

  That's a good question. Would I have been offended by that when I was in evangelicalism. In some ways, I I understand why his therapist said that to him that not all Christians are like that. There is a part of me that I recognize that when I hear his his experiences, there is a part of me that wants to say that same thing, you know, or would have wanted to to help someone understand, oh, those those people did not have a deep and meaningful relationship with Jesus. Their lives hadn't been transformed by him. I I get that. I I understand that within me somewhere there is still that like, oh, if only you understood or if only you had really had your life transformed in this way, they they clearly hadn't. You know? And so they hurt you, but that's so invalidating. because, yeah, my my family of origin in my own life in my own family, like, there were just times where where we were deeply, deeply hurt by religious people by by Christians. And so in some ways, you know, I I I understand why they responded, why they did, as they did, but man, today, If someone said that to me, I I would say I wanna I wanna hear more about that, you know, I I would approach it from a place of curiosity, of kindness, of warmth, of nonjudgment, and of of saying, I'm I'm just so sorry that that happened to you. I would let go. I try to let go of just there there is no need to defend. Why yeah. I never wanna do that.

  Carrie Wiita [01:10:26]:

  What should the goal be? Or or what what should a therapist's goal be to help a client who, you know, comes into the room and says, I'm experiencing religious trauma.

  Josh Foster [01:10:39]:

  So I'll speak to my own experiences within evangelicalism. That's what I'm most familiar with. I I think it applies to other faiths as well. But within evangelicalism, there is the idea that we are born into sin, that we are just sinful people. That's who we are, and that's just widely accepted as, like, that that's the right belief system to have to that's the right way to see yourself. I think that's so damaging to human beings to see themselves as as bad as evil. And what I'm finding in the work that I'm doing with people so often, people who are trying to heal from religious trauma, I hear them use words like should, need to, shouldn't. The these are judgment based words. In other words, there's something wrong with me that I think this way or that I act this way, and I really try to help people understand that they're using that language because it's it's a judgment that they are making on themselves. And I am finding that if we can replace those words with with words that usually end in ing journeying towards taking steps towards learning that those are words of kindness that we show towards ourselves. And if I say nothing wise to the people that I work with, if I can show them kindness unconditional kindness. If they can begin to turn that towards themselves just a little bit I think that's where healing can really happen more deeply, more fully. And so in my mind, you know, that's that's my hope as I work with people that they can turn that kindness towards themselves.

  Ben Fineman [01:12:48]:

  It sounds like a very different perspective than helping somebody strengthen their faith, especially if that's not what they're coming in for. And And I think back to earlier in our conversation, you said you're trying to avoid either or ways of thinking. But I wanna try and get you to to step into that space, you can push back. But I'm thinking about everything you're saying in our conversation. And the idea that for evangelical Christians, the first priority is getting other people to see things from their perspective. And I hear you talk about how you work with religious trauma. And it's it's in some ways the exact opposite of that. The first priority is giving the client agency to do what they feel is best for them. And so what I'm curious about and we've been having some controversial episodes lately by coincidence, so maybe this can be one of them. We can loop you into this this trend on our podcast, trying to get all of us in trouble. Is it just simply impossible for an evangelical Christian to follow the laws and ethics of our profession. Like, just should evangelical Christians simply not be therapists? End of story because their goals are always going to be 1st and foremost, towards God and towards evangelicalism as opposed to what therapy should So, yeah, if you could just go ahead and on the record say that evangelical Christians should not be therapists, that'd be great for our ratings here.

  Josh Foster [01:14:16]:

  I no. I cannot say that because I know I know evangelicals who are wonderful therapists who are able to live in the both end who do not have to feel like they have to convert clients or be a defender of the faith. And so I I don't think it's impossible for them to live in that place. It takes the ability to live in the uncomfortableness of that. You know, it takes the ability to let go of the either or way of thinking and to live in the both end, and it can be done.

  Ben Fineman [01:15:07]:

  So Yeah. I I will not go on the record and and say that. Yes. We can we can edit it, so it makes it sound like you're saying it anyway. But, seriously, though, I'm I am curious given what I know about evangelicalism, my assumption was that there really is no kind of being in that uncomfortable space and being able to kind of quiet your own viewpoints in favor of your clients. I thought kind of the hallmark of being an evangelical Christian is saying this viewpoint is the correct viewpoint, and I need other people to see it that way. So just if you can you give me, like like, the quick tutorial on what's mistaken in that perspective? because it's it's truly not something I know a lot about.

  Josh Foster [01:15:49]:

  Well, I I think there's a lot correct in in what you just said with an evangelicalism. The further I get from it, the more I see how much certainty is worshiped as as a god within evangelicalism. having the right beliefs, you know, and and there's there's code language, there's there's questions that get asked that are like, do you fit within the box that I have of of beliefs You know? And if you're outside of that box, oh, then, you know, you you probably aren't an authentic believer. You probably you know, so Jeremy talked about a spectrum of of beliefs within Chris Christianity. And and, yeah, that's true. There's fundamentalism. There's there's Christians who kind of are on the other end of that spectrum. those who are fundamentalists would not see, you know, those on the other end of the spectrum as as true Christians and yeah, it's it's all about having the right belief systems. I you know, often when I get phone calls from people looking for therapy. Sometimes they ask me, you know, like, what what I believe, and they're usually Christians And I know what they're really asking. You know? Is are you a Christian? Are you going are you do you have the right belief systems because I can't see someone often who doesn't have the same belief systems as myself. And what I tell people is that I'm on a journey, and I'm I'm learning to be okay with the uncertainty of not knowing. Now those people don't usually end up working with me because they're very much wanting someone who can only who only sees the world through one perspective and that's okay. You know, that's I wouldn't probably be a great therapist. for them even though I try very hard to live in the both and and allow a person to bring with them all of of who they are, their beliefs,

  Ben Fineman [01:18:14]:

  hearing you phrase it that way, I find it interesting because if a client goes to a therapist and says, I need you to have this set of beliefs. I think that's great. I think it's great for clients to know what they're looking for in a therapist and to find it. I think it's less great. It's still potentially perfectly fine, but I think it's less great for a therapist to say, I need my clients to have a certain set of beliefs because there is a scenario where the client might not know that that is your rule and then you get 5 or 6 sessions in, client says something, and then all of a sudden, the client feels abandoned, the client feels like there's this huge rupture. It's okay for therapists to say, I will only work with these populations. but if that's not really transparent upfront, there is a risk of serious harm if a client starts to develop a bond with the therapist. And then the therapist is like, Just kidding, you use the word religious trauma get out. Like, that is a failure on the therapist part on a lot of levels, but one of them is upfront not being explicit that this is a a line that they have that can't be crossed for their clients. because you think the therapist, they should want their clients to know that ahead of time, And that's where it seems like there's just these huge failures that Jeremy experienced over and over again are the therapists upfront not making it clear that you're questioning your faith is not welcome here. you using the term religious trauma is not welcome here. And at least if that was explicitly mentioned upfront, Jerry would would know to say, well, I'm just not gonna see this person. That's that's one of the real tragedies of his experience to me is that the therapist didn't even have the foresight to give him that empowerment upfront, so he had to go through this process at least three times. of being disappointed when the therapist revealed themselves to be unwilling to work with him because of his belief.

  Carrie Wiita [01:19:53]:

  I I think that that's what makes me so angry about this issue, right, of how does a therapist hold you know, both band. It sounds to me, Josh. And correct me if I'm hearing you correctly, but it seems like you are saying there is somehow a way that at least in the evangelical kind of perspective way of thinking. that you have found and you know other therapists who have found a way to do therapy, get licensed as a therapist, and and do therapy ethically, while still also, you know, holding those and honoring those religious beliefs, not transgressing against them. And so if there is this way to do it, I feel like the other ones, Ben, the ones that you're talking about, the ones who put the mission of the faith ahead of, you know, their duty to their clients, I don't understand why they get licensed. Why would I don't even understand why they would pursue becoming a therapist. Just be a pastoral counselor. Am I wrong? That's what I don't that seems to me the biggest ethical breach is, like, if you know that at some point during your licensing process, if you know that you have a deep seated belief or or idea about what your purpose is and you find out it runs counter to what therapy is supposed to be about. I feel like you you have to get out of it.

  Josh Foster [01:21:29]:

  I mean, I think that's why pastoral counseling is a very legitimate way of approaching therapy. And either some people yeah. For for some people, that's a wonderful fit. with with who they are. And I don't know, Carrie.

  Carrie Wiita [01:21:52]:

  Yeah. sorry. I didn't really throw you a question. I was just ranting and and and being angry. But I what I do what what I think is su super helpful for me about about this well, I hope it's helpful for folks who are listening, who are the therapist in this situation where, you know, they have whatever the religious belief may be, where they have a strong sense of of a religious belief or tradition. And to know that, like, you can't you almost have to go be extra careful. about knowing yourself and how you practice therapy well enough so that you're not harming your clients with that. So on the one hand, I hope that that is is getting is getting across to folks. But I'm also feeling like I'm learning more about what is so difficult about therapy maybe for folks who have experienced religious trauma. I really appreciate what you had said about, you know, trying to help them be kind to themselves. What are some other important things that therapists who maybe aren't this isn't their specialty, not super familiar with this. What are the some things that we should know or be aware of in working with clients who have experienced religious trauma?

  Josh Foster [01:23:18]:

  It takes an immense amount of courage for them to be asking any questions. because asking questions potentially means that they come to answers that challenge everything that they believe where they let go of of the things that they once held to be true. And just by asking questions, it means that they potentially can lose their their whole community it means that they can lose relationships with their family. I I can't tell you how many people I've worked with were Yeah. They they have lost that relationship with their family because they've dared to ask questions. And So just the fact that that person is sitting there in the office on a Zoom call, whatever it is, asking questions, sharing their experience, it takes just a tremendous amount of courage for them to to just begin that process. And so, yeah, that would be something I I would hope that therapists would would hold on to you and try to remember and try to honor that with the people that they're seeing.

  Ben Fineman [01:24:47]:

  Josh, this has been this has been fantastic. I'm curious. Is there anything we haven't gotten to yet that feels important to share for for yourself or listeners or anything related to Jeremy's story?

  Josh Foster [01:24:57]:

  Yeah. Going back to some things that we were talking about earlier just in terms of, you know, therapists being upfront or or what they're bringing with them. You know, I I know that as I am have been on a journey myself I'm trying to be more upfront when potential clients reach out to me of of just when they ask that question of of my own beliefs, it would be so easy for me to fall into just, like, I I know what it is they're really looking for. It would be easy for me to to give them the answer that they're looking for. but I'm trying to be intentional in in just and being okay personally with with saying, like, I'm on my own journey spiritually and and even just the language that's on my website you know, it it used to be more pastoral kind of language because that's that's a world I lived in for many years. I've I've changed all of that to to just have faith based therapy, faith based counseling. You know? I I will work with a person if they wanna bring that with them into therapy. Absolutely. Yeah. We can You know, I I can help people in that. I can help them listen to themselves and the questions that they're asking and help them you know, to kind of figure out what what are the questions I'm asking, and and I'm not going to answer those questions for them about faith but I can help them reflect back to them, you know, what it is that they are asking and and learning to be okay with the questions that they're asking. And so Yeah. I I guess just like, that's that's changed for me a little bit in the the years where I've been a therapist. You know? And so I've I've I'm trying to just be more upfront with with even how I advertise the kind of work that I do with people.

  Ben Fineman [01:27:11]:

  And where can people find you online if they want to seek you out?

  Josh Foster [01:27:15]:

  Yeah. My website is fostering hopes dotcom. And my email is josh@fosteringhopes.com. yeah, I I do a lot of work, obviously, with with people who have experienced religious trauma. And And I know I work you know, that's that's what I get really excited to to work with to help people with because it's it's been a part of my story. And if if I can help others in in their own stories, if I can help others heal a little bit, then that's what I wanna do. That's that's who I wanna be as a therapist to help people in that way.

  Carrie Wiita [01:28:01]:

  Right. We will have Josh's information on the website and in the show notes. Josh, thank you so much. for sharing your thoughts with us today.

  Josh Foster [01:28:10]:

  Yeah. My pleasure. Thank you guys for having me.

  Carrie Wiita [01:28:20]:

  Thank you for listening to very bad therapy. The views and opinions expressed do not constitute therapeutic or legal advice nor do they represent any entity other than ourselves or our guests.

  Ben Fineman [01:28:29]:

  Visit us at very badtherapy.com for more content, ways to support the podcast, or to let us know if you have a story you'd like to share on the show. If you'd like to join our Patreon community and get access to our monthly bonus episodes, check us out at patreon.com/verybadtherapy.