Episode 147 - Termination Session
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Carrie Wiita [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Very Bad Therapy, a closer look at what goes wrong in the counseling room and how it could go better, as told by the clients who survived. From Los Angeles, I'm Caroline Wiita.
Ben Fineman [00:00:11]:
And I'm Ben Fineman. Legally encouraged to say that this podcast does not constitute therapeutic advice, but it will get interesting. Let's get started. Tyri, I have a question for you about termination sessions with clients.
Carrie Wiita [00:00:30]:
Oh, God. Feels like a pop quiz.
Ben Fineman [00:00:33]:
Okay, not a pop quiz. I'm curious. Going into termination sessions with clients when you know that it's the last one, it's been discussed and it's been kind of set up that this will be our final session. What is your feeling going into those? Is there sadness that it's over? Is there happiness, especially when therapy has gone well and it's a good termination? Is there anxiety about the awkwardness of goodbyes? Where do you land on saying goodbye in general?
Carrie Wiita [00:01:01]:
That's a really good question. I think I selfishly go into it with sadness because I will miss the relationship. But I think as like, professionally, I think that I'm optimistic. I suppose it depends on the nature of the termination. So, for example, when I had clients finish therapy just because they were done or moving or whatever, it felt good. It felt like I was happy for them. But when I graduated and was finishing school and terminating, I was terminating because I was leaving. It wasn't the client's decision to leave those.
Carrie Wiita [00:01:47]:
I felt more sad because often the clients were also like, I wish this wasn't happening now I have to start over with a new therapist, blah, blah, blah. And so that was like a, yeah, this sucks all around. Cool.
Ben Fineman [00:02:04]:
So the very transparent, obvious reason why I'm asking you that question now is because this is us maybe saying goodbye. This is us taking an indefinite pause from doing this podcast. This may be our final episode, at least for now. We hope to come back.
Carrie Wiita [00:02:17]:
Yeah.
Ben Fineman [00:02:18]:
But in some ways, it feels like an end. So how are you feeling about this being potentially the last time you and I are going to be hopping on Zoom, doing our recording and broadcasting our thoughts out into the world?
Carrie Wiita [00:02:31]:
It's so interesting. I think I have had such a roller coaster of emotions because you and I have been talking about it for a few weeks now, maybe, so it's not like a surprise. And I think at first I was like but then I was like, oh, that'd be nice to have time back. There's a lot of emotional bandwidth that gets dedicated to something like this, and to have that back would be so nice. But then coming on here today as I was setting up all my equipment and everything, because it's Saturday morning, 10:00 a.m., this is when we usually do our podcasting, I was like, last time, I'm going to be plugging this in in like a hurry. So that Ben doesn't yell at me.
Ben Fineman [00:03:13]:
Because I'm late, leave the people thinking I'm a tyrant.
Carrie Wiita [00:03:20]:
I, like controlling the narrative. How are you feeling?
Ben Fineman [00:03:25]:
Very positive. Part of that is because you and I actually made an effort to hang out last week outside of these recordings because I think 95% of our friendship has been via this podcast in the last four years.
Carrie Wiita [00:03:38]:
Yeah, for sure.
Ben Fineman [00:03:39]:
But I feel good. And we'll get into why we're pausing or ending and some takeaways and some thoughts. But is it okay if I just start by shouting out like, everybody listening, our guests, all of it? Because I think that maybe the most important thing for us saying goodbye here is to say thank you.
Carrie Wiita [00:03:56]:
Yes, 100%.
Ben Fineman [00:03:58]:
So let me know if you feel like I'm kind of leaving anybody out. But I wanted to first thank the guests, especially the clients of therapy, who have had the willingness, I think, at times, the courage, the vulnerability to come on and share their experiences with us. Thanking the guest experts with a special shout out to Dr. Ben Caldwell, who was always our go to when we needed somebody to come on and educate us on laws and ethics. Thanking the listeners for making this possible because we wouldn't do this if nobody listened. And then the people who supported us by leaving us ratings and reviews, joining our Patreon page, which we're pausing that as well. So if anybody is a Patreon subscriber, feel free to unsubscribe there. Or if anybody wants to join because they miss us, our back catalog will be open indefinitely, so they can go check that out.
Ben Fineman [00:04:45]:
And you, I want to thank you because you've made this a very fun exasperating at times, not because of you, but you joined me in my exasperation about the field and sometimes the technology aspect of it as well. So thank you.
Carrie Wiita [00:04:59]:
Carrie, you can say that I'm exasperating at times. That's all right. I'm okay with that.
Ben Fineman [00:05:04]:
We've gotten so much better at being on time.
Carrie Wiita [00:05:08]:
I know. I figured out a system. It all works. I mean, at least for this now, who knows? The rest of my life is going to be chaotic. Yes, Ben. Yes to all of the above. Number one. I do want to just kind of add a little bit more to thinking the clients, the guests on our show who have been clients of therapy, like I've said before on this show, that I think my ulterior motive for doing this was to find out everything that therapists do wrong so that I would never do it.
Carrie Wiita [00:05:42]:
And I learned that that is obviously a fool's errand and not possible, simply not possible. But I do think through the courage and often like the pain that our guests shared with us, I learned so much about being a therapist, what therapy can be in a good way, in a bad way. I would say that from our guests. I learned as much, if not more than I learned in grad school about therapy, about being with other people, about what the therapeutic relationship, what it can be. So I want to thank them for the education. And you said that if if it wasn't for the listeners, we wouldn't be doing this. I'm not sure because I vividly remember starting this podcast and I did no preparation. We just kind of like, jumped into doing it.
Carrie Wiita [00:06:46]:
And in part I was like, that's fine, we can just do whatever because no one's going to listen to our podcast. And it was going to just be like this fun project and maybe some friends and family would listen or something. So I think we would have done it anyway. I don't know if we would have done it this long, and I know it wouldn't have been anywhere near as rewarding without the people who have listened and the people who reach out and share that this has been helpful or enjoyable or whatever. It has really been one of the most fulfilling experiences of my life. So I want to thank the listeners and the feedbackers and yeah, Ben, I want to thank about when you brought this up, we talked about maybe continuing the show if you were going to step back. Did I want to keep doing the show either by myself or with a new co host or something. And I don't want to because this project for me is with you.
Carrie Wiita [00:07:58]:
And so I think without you, it ceases to be the thing that it.
Ben Fineman [00:08:03]:
Oh, well, thank you, Carrie. Now should we talk about why we're.
Carrie Wiita [00:08:10]:
To hear I can't wait to hear how you talk about it.
Ben Fineman [00:08:13]:
So I was reflecting on this, and I think there's two main, maybe three. The one I didn't write down and just kind of like jotting out some notes is I feel like we've accomplished what we set out to accomplish, which is to explore the client perspectives on what happens when things don't go well because everything else in this field is covered. There's a lot out there about client perspectives when things do go well, and there's an infinite amount of information from therapists about what makes therapy helpful and not helpful, et cetera. And I think we've kind of gotten to that finish line of having had a number of wonderful conversations with some wonderful people, some that we've made friendships with, like lifelong friendships with, which is incredible. And I think kind of in conjunction to that is at least personally, I feel like I run out of things to say. I feel like for a little while, it's felt like generating content for the sake of generating content and meeting the deadline for a new episode and figuring out what can we do for the next episode instead of having things ready to go and feeling excited about it. And I think there's a trap when you put any kind of content out into the world that people receive positively is you end up in a lane, and you need to stay in that lane. And that means that you need to find things to fit into that narrative, because that's what people are coming to you for.
Carrie Wiita [00:09:28]:
Right.
Ben Fineman [00:09:29]:
And I kind of want out of that cycle of feeling like we have to deliver the same thing, because I feel like we've said all there is to say about this topic. I don't know what else there is. Like, we've done our recent study hall episodes, and those were great. But even that, it kind of feels like we're saying, okay, what can we find to talk about? And then we have to go do the research on it. And it just seems like we're in that cycle that we can't get out of. And for a while it was great because that was the whole point of the show, and now it just feels like it's out of necessity.
Carrie Wiita [00:10:00]:
Right. That makes a lot of sense.
Ben Fineman [00:10:03]:
Yeah.
Carrie Wiita [00:10:03]:
So that's one, I like that. Yeah. Okay.
Ben Fineman [00:10:06]:
I think number two is that if I'm being honest, I think doing the show has gotten to the point where it brings things out in me that I don't like. I feel like I've used the word cynical a lot in recent episodes, and I think a lot of this just lies within me. It's not like a condemnation of the field or certainly not our guests. It's when we set out to look under the hood and see, how does therapy actually work? How does this field actually work? It inevitably leads me to feeling cynical, to feeling negative, to feeling judgmental, and I want to feel great about being in this field, and I find myself drifting in the wrong direction. And all of this acknowledges the fact that therapy is very effective. Therapy is great. It is a huge net positive, I think, in the world. But it's just become exceedingly difficult for me to not just see the cynical side of things.
Ben Fineman [00:11:00]:
And I could either work on that within myself or just remove myself from the situation that's causing those feelings. And I have, I think, come to the conclusion that the latter makes sense. Do you disagree on any of that? Do you feel like I'm curious as you hear me describe this. Does it feel like just one man's downward spiral and finding external reasons for it when it's really my own work that needs to be done?
Carrie Wiita [00:11:28]:
No. Well, I don't disagree that's how you feel. I don't feel the same way.
Ben Fineman [00:11:36]:
That's what therapists say when they don't want to invalidate their clients, but they think the client is completely, like, off the rails.
Carrie Wiita [00:11:43]:
I have a different perspective, but I think that's because I have a different reaction, I think, to some of this stuff. We talked about this a little bit because I haven't been feeling like ending it. I don't dread the recordings or anything. In large part that's because you do the lion share of the work. So for me, I just show up. But hearing the bad therapy stories, it's a lot. I mean it's certainly like it's not going through the bad therapy experience but it's hard to hear and it is tough. I think that because you just find that there are so many ways for it to go wrong.
Carrie Wiita [00:12:28]:
But I think what I find heartening is there are so many ways that you can do it right and the ways that you can salvage it when it goes wrong are not that hard, which I find really encouraging and wonderful. And I think that the more that we have learned about the lack of certainty in this field has made you more cynical or driven you closer to your campsite on the edge of the abyss. Whereas I think I have experienced it as freedom to think differently because I don't feel the need to adhere to what's been handed to me in the field because it's not like sacrosanct information. Everyone's still trying to figure out what works in therapy, what is this thing that we do with each other, what is it? And so I feel like that has made me excited and more like I find myself getting more and more and more energized. I'm so deeply passionate about the other work, the work that I've been doing around my thesis. And so for me, the idea of not doing the show anymore is kind of like sick. I get my weekends back so I can focus on my course, that kind of stuff. But I don't disagree with you in term, you know how I feel.
Carrie Wiita [00:13:55]:
We joke that we are an echo chamber because we do often see things so similarly. I just think we react to it in this instance differently.
Ben Fineman [00:14:06]:
Yeah, I think that's perfectly fair and I admire you and I admire other friends that we've made and people we know who kind of see just the ambiguity about our field, the uncertainty, the lack of any objective truth about pretty much anything. And it gives them the freedom to find something that really speaks to them and that they can say, okay, since nothing is the right way to do it, I'm going to pick this thing that I feel passionate about and I'm just going to invest in this while knowing it's not the be all and end. I don't have to convert people to my way of seeing it, but this is what's going to make me really enjoy the work and it's still going to help a lot of people and so that's what I'm going to dive into. I admire that in you. I admire that in a number of people that we know, friends that we've made along the way. I don't know, for some reason I just can't step out of that and maybe an example. So at the center where I work, we got a call from a woman who's looking for therapy, and she was referred to us because we provide low fee services. Right?
Carrie Wiita [00:15:02]:
Right.
Ben Fineman [00:15:03]:
And I spoke with her on the phone, and she was talking about wanting therapy for trauma. And she had a very specific conceptualization in her mind of how the trauma was impacting her, of what it meant for her that she had trauma.
Carrie Wiita [00:15:15]:
Okay.
Ben Fineman [00:15:15]:
And I don't know if this was the product of her own research or it was suggested to her by the person who referred her to us, but she said, this is my diagnosis, as it were. This is how trauma shows up for me. Here's why it shows up for me this way. And so what I would like to receive is a form of therapy called istdp, intensive short term dynamic psychotherapy, I believe. And I said, well, our counselors are in their first few years of experience, so they don't have formal training in istdp. But all our counselors are very much trained to be trauma informed, and I'm confident that we can help you with what you're describing. And she let out kind of a discouraged sigh in realizing that we cannot provide the specific thing she's looking for. And obviously, if she finds somebody who does, her outcomes will likely be better than they were with us because she has a sense of what she wants.
Carrie Wiita [00:16:02]:
Absolutely.
Ben Fineman [00:16:02]:
But I'm pretty sure that there's not too many training clinics out there with people who specialize in istdp because it's a pretty niche modality. So our field has created these narratives, created these stories around how things work, why things work, and present them to the public in a way that some people are going to be like this woman where she could get very good services from us at a rate that she can afford to help her with her trauma. But the narrative that she has stumbled across has now made her want this one specific thing that she can't afford. And that's the part that I think brings out the cynicism in me. And it's hard for me to not be discouraged by that. And I think the more I see things like that in our field, the more it becomes it just feels ubiquitous. And I do want to say I think this is the product of lots of well intentioned people. I don't think that any more than, like 1% of the people in our field ever have bad intentions or just looking at any of this as a way to extract money from clients or from other therapists.
Ben Fineman [00:17:01]:
I think everything is uncertain in our field, and people get a lot of anxiety or concern around that. And so they want to find certainty. And when they do, they feel like they have the truth, and they feel like they have something to offer to clients, to other therapists. So they provide workshops, they write books, they have a $4,000 training for ifs that you need to win a lottery to get into. But it's not going to make you a, quote unquote, better therapist. You're just going to feel like a better therapist. And then you feel like because you have this privileged knowledge, you should charge people more to learn how to do it or to receive it. And that's the part, I think that makes me feel discouraged, is that it's a lot of well intentioned people who are helping people because therapy is very helpful in general.
Ben Fineman [00:17:44]:
But the industry that is therapy at the end of the day is a lot of sales, is a lot of storytelling, and is a lot of people trying to find some sense of certainty in an uncertain field. And it just keeps cycling back for me at this feeling of discouragement because it's kind of all I see at this point. And I don't know if it's optimism, I don't know what the word is, but it's this thing that I wish I had, that I see you having, that I see colleagues of ours having where they can say, yeah, that's just how it is. So I'm going to choose my own place in this field. That feels really good. It's hard for me to just narrow down and find that. So that's where I think a lot of the product of this podcast leading to my cynicism, that's where it comes from. It's not so much the stories of bad therapy we hear, because I think that's inevitable even with well intentioned people, well intentioned therapists.
Ben Fineman [00:18:39]:
I think a lot of it is just the nature of our field itself. Therapy is great, and then everything we've piled on top of the actual act of sitting across from a client. I think therapy works in spite of that a lot of the times rather than because of it.
Carrie Wiita [00:18:52]:
I think that that makes sense. I may just be being incredibly dense this morning, but can you explain a little bit more about what is discouraging about the fact that this person wanted a very specific approach to therapy?
Ben Fineman [00:19:08]:
Because it was something that, as far as I'm aware, in our field is paired with a pretty significant price tag because it takes a lot of training to become this type of therapist and it's not something that trainees charging $30 at a nonprofit offer, I think. So the discouraging part is that she can't afford what she's been told she needs. So she's either going to mortgage her financial future to find this and create other problems for herself in her life, or she's going to settle, quote unquote, for something that she thinks will be less effective. Therefore it will be less effective for her because clients who come in not expecting something to work are unlikely to have positive outcomes. So our field has presented her with this idea of what therapy is that is going against what she I think it makes it hard for her to get what she thinks she needs is maybe the best way to describe it.
Carrie Wiita [00:20:01]:
Interesting. So you're saying that if istdp didn't exist, then she wouldn't know about it and then she'd be happy with whatever therapy was available to her at the clinic because price is the most important part. I think I just broke Ben, because.
Ben Fineman [00:20:20]:
If a client has a strong expectation of what's going to help and they find it, it's going to lead to better outcomes, right? On average. So I don't think it's a bad thing that these different approaches exist. I think the way they get wrapped up in the narratives around this is what you need for trauma and this is what you need for this. I think it creates something that in theory works great, but in reality, sometimes people think what they need, they can't afford. Therapists think they need to go get an expensive training to be an effective therapist. It's a house of cards that works almost accidentally. It works not because of the way we're setting it up to work. It works kind of as an off label product of what we're presenting to people about how it should be working.
Carrie Wiita [00:21:03]:
Think I understand. Maybe I don't. Maybe I don't. So when I hear that story, I'm so happy for that client. She can't get therapy at your center because nobody offers that particular approach, but she's already bought in. She already has hope and buy in and a belief that this is going to help her. So honest to God, she's probably halfway there, right? She just needs to find this healer and the ritual who can conduct the ritual and lead to hopefully what will be successful therapy. I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility for her to then call around and find an istdp therapist who will do a sliding scale.
Carrie Wiita [00:21:54]:
You seem to feel like there's no options. Like this poor person has been screwed over by therapy land before even getting started and feel like, oh, my God, how great that she knows exactly what's going to work for her and she's going to go find it. Because most people stare at the Internet and are like, I think I need therapy, but I don't know where to go. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to look for. I'm overwhelmed. I'm just not going to deal with it.
Ben Fineman [00:22:19]:
Yeah, I mean, maybe this all goes back to the book that you and I set out to write years ago, that we got a first chapter done and then stopped because it just felt like too big of a project. That in the absence of knowing what to do with certainty, we present these ideas to clients. And then sometimes it works great and sometimes it leads to huge, conflicting scenarios. I think I look at this as one of those conflicting scenarios where we've presented this idea of what therapy is as a field to somebody like this. And it may go great, it may not. But it feels like the whole field is just missing the mark at moving forward with these ideas of people have the knowledge. They'll train other therapists to do it. Those therapists will provide it to clients.
Ben Fineman [00:22:58]:
And this is how it should and needs to work, because that is how the mind works. Blah, blah, blah. Neuroscience, right? I feel like I've just gotten a place where it's all I see, and I think I see the issues with it as opposed to the positives with it. I want to fix it, and it feels unfixable.
Carrie Wiita [00:23:14]:
Yeah, I think that that's where we're fundamentally so different. I think all of the uncertainty in the field coupled with the research that shows it is more often successful therapy is more often successful than not, has led me to the conclusion that I think every single therapist has their own approach to therapy, their own way of doing therapy. And so they might call themselves an istdp therapist or whatever, because that framework makes sense to them. They got the training, they have the initials after their name, whatever. But at the end of the day, what they're doing is and will always be different from the istdp therapist next not those therapists aren't interchangeable, which to me, makes the actual practice completely different from therapist to therapist. Like, there's no way the two therapists can deliver the exact same therapy, which says to me then that if there's over 600 different brands of therapy out there, it's not really the brand of therapy that's doing it, but that probably, like, istdp probably getting trained in. That probably makes the therapist who got the training feel way more competent, feel so much more clear about what they're doing in the room, so much better equipped to communicate a myth and rationale and communicate hope to a client. And for a client who reads about it and thinks, oh, yeah, this totally meshes with my understanding of myself, and this is what I need, what a perfect match.
Carrie Wiita [00:25:08]:
I think this is the root of my optimism, and I'm not trying to get you to be optimistic. I've tried that. I think the root of my optimism is that this means, like, anybody can be good at therapy. I mean, anybody can be good at therapy. It depends for the therapist, it depends. Do you feel like you need to get trained in ifs to be a good therapist, then you need to get trained in ifs. And it sucks that there's a lottery. It sucks that it's like, four grand or ten grand, whatever it is.
Carrie Wiita [00:25:42]:
But if that's what you think you need, then that's what you need. Just like therapy. If you're a client and you're like, I need to see this therapist, and she charges $200 an hour, too bad you couldn't find somebody at a low class community clinic for $30 an hour, but good luck. Everyone gets to make their own choices, I think. I don't like how therapists turn on each other over these different ridiculous stories that we tell about therapy. I think that's silly, but I think I overall see a yeah, I don't really I'm really happy for that client who called your like, it's too like that isn't going to work out, but I feel pretty solid that she'll be able to find some istdp therapist in the state of California who will do a sliding scale that she can afford.
Ben Fineman [00:26:44]:
Yeah. Again, I admire your perspective and I think part of the reason why I feel pulled away from this podcast, why I feel like it's time to step away, at least for now, is that I've lost that thread that I think I used to have. I used to have an optimism. I used to feel like doing this was making me feel more connected to the field, maybe even trying to improve the field in some small way, trying to understand the field. And I want to find that again. So hopefully you and I will return to doing this podcast when that motivation is back, right?
Carrie Wiita [00:27:15]:
When you get brainwashed.
Ben Fineman [00:27:16]:
Yeah.
Carrie Wiita [00:27:17]:
I want to go back to something you said, though, at the very beginning you said, or is this just me and I need to do the work? I don't think that there's work to be done. I mean, you can do all the work that you want. I don't think there's something wrong with you. I think you're making exactly the right choice. This no longer feeds you, so step back from it, but I don't think you're messed up or something. I don't think you need to go process.
Ben Fineman [00:27:44]:
I am very happy we did this. I feel just overwhelmingly positive about the whole experience aggregate.
Carrie Wiita [00:27:51]:
Yeah.
Ben Fineman [00:27:52]:
I agree that I've learned a ton from you, especially from you, from our guests as well. We've met some great people. So overall, my cynicism and my wet blanket nature as it pertains to these just I just want to reinforce it's very localized as opposed to a general theme. And overall, I'm just really grateful for having done this with you, Carrie.
Carrie Wiita [00:28:19]:
I am, too. I don't know if anybody else would put up with these conversations with me other than you, so I deeply appreciate it.
Ben Fineman [00:28:30]:
And so I got nothing else. I know you wanted to talk about what's next for you in terms of the upcoming course that you have, some of the stuff you've been doing. So I would love to hear it, but I got nothing else in terms of wrapping up, saying our temporary, potentially permanent goodbyes, other than thanking everybody.
Carrie Wiita [00:28:48]:
Well, I've got one more thing as it relates to this project that we have done, and feel free to weigh in if this resonates for you or feels like this is going to be.
Ben Fineman [00:29:01]:
One of those seven hour.
Carrie Wiita [00:29:02]:
Episodes because no, it's not. No, it's not, because I already said it. I think in the episode that we did about the terrible feedback that we get, I think I already west poetic about it, and I just kind of wanted to reiterate it because since that episode aired, we've gotten more terrible feedback and then we've also gotten some really good feedback. Somebody in particular wait, did I write it down? Hold on. Yes, and I just did this. I pulled these quotes this morning, so I haven't actually asked if I can share it on the air, so I'm not going to say names. You know who you are. A listener wrote in, it's been both personally empowering and deeply delightful to hear your comments that's our comments, like, on the air, on the dumb reviews and critiques you get, and to see you continue to exist as yourself despite that.
Carrie Wiita [00:29:56]:
And that meant so much to me. And I wanted to double down on that because I think there's a lot of therapists who are terrified of saying putting anything out into the world either about therapy, about things they believe, about therapy, anything, because they're so afraid of the criticism that they can get mostly from other therapists, because therapists can be fucking mean. Like, just fucking mean. And I want to say, we get that and it's fine. Like, you're going to be okay if you put something out into the world. I encourage you to, because nobody's figured therapy out yet. Your ideals are just as good as anyone else's. You don't need to get fucking fully certified in something before you start talking about it.
Carrie Wiita [00:30:58]:
And I really want to emphasize that there's something about therapists, these communities, that are so eager to lash out at anyone who gets out of line. And there's a little bit of that performative. Like, I learned the right thing to say, and I notice when you say it wrong, and so I'm going to tell you you're saying it wrong. And I understand how that can be productive and helpful, but I also understand it scares the shit out of people who see the public floggings that happen and decide that they're just going to keep their mouth shut and not risk it, not risk that punishment. And I want to say that's not fair. The world will be better the more you put things out into the world, I promise. And I know we have plenty of people who are listening to me right now who are like, except you, Carrie. We wish you wouldn't put so much out of fine.
Ben Fineman [00:31:55]:
I really I really like the angry feedback we got via our Patreon page from somebody who has paid money to listen to things that they don't like and then took the time to reach out to criticize us through our Patreon page.
Carrie Wiita [00:32:08]:
Yes, we found out that somebody joined our patreon page, has given us money every month since, like, June and we sent out a letter, an email to our Patreon subscribers a while back. So they found out before you guys did that we're going on hiatus. And the very first reaction with this gleefully bouncing on our grave, like, oh, you can't do it anymore. That sucks for you. It's like, I will never understand that perspective. I won't. But thanks for the money and the listenership, but that's exactly what I'm talking about. And I just want to throw this out there.
Carrie Wiita [00:33:03]:
If anyone is feeling this way or is scared to put something out or has put something out there and gotten terrible, mean feedback, I don't know if you ever just want to get some support around that, hit me up. I'm happy to talk with you. I don't know if it would be helpful at all, but email me at what is it? Vbtpodcast@gmail.com. Or you can go to our website. Verybadtherapy.com and there's a message thing in there. I'll get them. Because I would be happy to chat with you if it would be helpful because it makes me so angry and people have so much time on their hands to rip other people down. And what is that? Brene.
Carrie Wiita [00:33:44]:
It's the Brene Brown quote that she only takes feedback if you are in the arena. Also, if you are out putting stuff out there, risking being vulnerable and you want to give her feedback, she's like, I'll take it. But if you are in the peanut gallery just throwing shit, your feedback is not helpful, not necessary, and won't be taken. Yeah, I just want to say that that didn't make any sense. That was not a very polished I got it thing I wanted to say. Okay, great.
Ben Fineman [00:34:18]:
I believe you are speaking from the wisdom of the immortal Taylor Swift. That haters going to hate.
Carrie Wiita [00:34:28]:
You got to shake it off. You just got to shake it off right then. Yeah. And to that, should I tell you what I'm going to be doing? Tell everyone what I'm doing. First of all, I'm going to pitch it. But first I'm going to say, like, many episodes ago, I was like, I'm going to do a course on theoretical orientations and psychotherapy, and I put up a mailing list or a waiting list situation on our website, and I've gotten over 100 people signed up to that so far. And so I have not forgotten about you. Instead, what I've decided as I've been building this program, this coaching program that's based on the framework interpersonal brand work that I created in my thesis and I realized the theoretical orientation piece.
Carrie Wiita [00:35:18]:
It's just like this whole side road, like tangent that doesn't really fit in this course, but is really helpful for folks who would be in the course. So I wanted to be available, so I'm going to make it free. I haven't figured out if it's going to be an email course or if it's going to be a course on my online learning platform yet, but it's going to be one of those. So I haven't forgotten about you. If you signed up to that. If you are interested, I'm going to do a course on theoretical orientations in therapy. What the hell is it? What the fuck does that mean? What are they supposed to do? How are we supposed to use them and what do they look like in practice? And differently? It's not going to be role plays or anything like that. It's just going to be my unvarnished opinion.
Carrie Wiita [00:36:00]:
So yeah, go to verybattherapy.com there's a thing up at the top that now says something about Carrie's programs or something like that. Click on that button and then you can sign up for that. So that's that. But the other thing that I've been working on that I cannot wait to finally just focus on entirely, even over the weekends, is this course that I've been building. I'm calling it So Interpersonal Brand work is the framework that I created. I've talked about it on the show before. It is a framework that helps therapists and other service providers develop a professional identity that is meaningful and authentic to them, but useful to their clients. And I genuinely believe this is going to make therapy easier, better for the clients and for therapists.
Carrie Wiita [00:36:50]:
And I think your marketing is going to be way easier once you do this because nobody ever talks about, like, you don't start at the beginning with our professional identity. And so folks who've had a hard time marketing, I think a lot of it comes from trying to do these things that are like, who's your ideal client niche down to find your market, and then what's your SEO strategy? And it's like, that's all fine and good, all those things are great. But if you don't know what you're selling and we don't we're not given the support, we're not helped through this process at all. So that's what I've been working on for like four years. So I created it and the course, it's going to be called IPB Practicum. And I haven't figured out exactly how long it's going to end up being. I'm about halfway through the lectures right now. And it is an online group coaching program, essentially.
Carrie Wiita [00:37:45]:
There's going to be lectures, video lectures, lots of activities to do, exercises, that kind of thing. And then group calls, and then some individual one on one work as well. I have no idea how much it's going to cost yet. I have no idea when it's starting. I was shooting for an October 1 start date. That's not going to happen. So I think it's going to launch mid October. But if you're interested, go to Verybadtherapy.com.
Carrie Wiita [00:38:09]:
Click the button at the very top that says, like, carries programs or whatever, and the one that says IPB Practicum. Sign up on that list, and I will let you know when it's up and running. And I'm not going to do a lot of marketing for the first one. I'm going to talk about it here. I might talk about it on our Facebook page, the very Bad therapy Facebook page, but yeah. So my first few enrollees, I guess, are going to get a huge discount because this is not a well oiled machine yet. So get in on the ground floor. Yeah.
Carrie Wiita [00:38:43]:
Did I explain I'm so in it, I don't even know whether I've effectively explained it or not.
Ben Fineman [00:38:49]:
Yeah. The feedback I'll give, the endorsement I'll give is that what you're doing, what you're selling, only makes me feel uncomfortable a tiny bit compared to what almost everybody else is selling in our field. That makes me feel uncomfortable a considerable amount.
Carrie Wiita [00:39:06]:
Well, you honestly have been the person. Everything I've ever written in this course is like, would this convince Ben? Because you are my white wheel. Absolutely. And I know I haven't gotten there yet, but if I can get closer.
Ben Fineman [00:39:22]:
But maybe this wraps it all up. Is that the reason why I resonate with your ideas around interpersonal brand work is that, yes, you, the therapist who is applying these approaches, is benefiting, but you're benefiting. It's like a rising tide lifts all boats. You are benefiting in a way that leads to better client outcomes, because you are channeling what you do best, what you want to do best, and communicating that to the client in every possible manner before therapy even starts.
Carrie Wiita [00:39:51]:
Exactly.
Ben Fineman [00:39:51]:
And where this whole episode and my cynicism comes from is the feeling like therapists, despite having, well, intentions, are moving in a direction that is neutral for their clients, but better for therapist because they get to charge more money, they get to have more clout, et cetera. You are saying, well, since we don't really know what works in therapy, why not have therapists figure out what works for them, what feels good to them, and then communicate that to the client? Because that will lead to better outcomes, but also benefit the therapist. And that feels not terrible, maybe even good to me. At the end of the day, it's mutually beneficial for both the client and therapist. And I think anything that benefits clients is a win. And if it benefits therapists, also great. That allows the field to exist. It's the stuff that benefits therapists but not clients, that just has the veil of benefiting clients, because there's a great story that surrounds it.
Ben Fineman [00:40:45]:
That's the stuff that makes me cynical. Your stuff doesn't make me cynical. It just doesn't make me excited. Because at this point, I think I'm just too far gone.
Carrie Wiita [00:40:54]:
You're just over it.
Ben Fineman [00:40:56]:
You can't really put that on an email blast. Ben Feynman says it only makes him somewhat uncomfortable. It's not going to sell. But you know that this is a meaningful endorsement.
Carrie Wiita [00:41:08]:
If anyone knows Ben Feynman, I think it will. I think that's the most meaningful endorsement of all no, you said it. So. Ben. Thank you. First of all, I feel very heard. I feel like you really listen to kind of what I've been trying to put together here, and I really appreciate that. The whole impetus of this is it kills me seeing therapists struggle with impostor syndrome again, because I feel like the only person who's making you feel that is the rest of the people in this field.
Carrie Wiita [00:41:42]:
Because chances are probably pretty good that most of your clients actually like working with you. It really is about my thing is not, yes, hopefully you get more clients out of having better marketing, a more comfortable professional identity, but it's really about making this feel better for you and doable for you as a therapist in.
Ben Fineman [00:42:13]:
A way that also benefits the clients.
Carrie Wiita [00:42:15]:
That can't help but enhance the service you provide. It cannot help because all of the research is so clear that if you as a therapist feel like understand what you're doing and can talk about what you're doing with your to. For me, from what to be that's my takeaway from all of the you know how. Like, Ben, you've know, at a certain point, we all drink the Kool Aid and we pick the one part of the field that we're like. This is the that for is that's the Kool Aid for me is that I think that we have so focused on the bells and whistles, and then we push people out into the field and we're like, great, good luck making money. And then lots of people are like, let me help you make money. And lost in all of it is the therapist and the relationship they build with their clients, which is like the whole point that we do. Yeah, I'm really excited.
Carrie Wiita [00:43:20]:
I'm excited about doing that's. For me, that's the natural outgrowth of the work that we've done on this show, Ben, is I feel like, for me, I see this way forward. I see this thing that is so easy and so obvious, an obvious way to make therapy better that all these other fields have figured out and are. Do you know that they're training salespeople to be more like therapists? Yeah. I just read an academic article. It was published, I think this year. They're teaching salespeople how to develop empathy.
Ben Fineman [00:43:59]:
Because that I like the implication that salespeople just naturally lack empathy.
Carrie Wiita [00:44:04]:
What they found is that turns out it was about co creation of value, but that customers of salespeople engage in more value co creation activities when the salesperson has a higher emotional intelligence and exhibits empathy. Because obviously but it's so funny to me. I don't know. Our field is so quirky. It's so weird in so many ways, but I'm excited. I love this work. I see it honestly, and this is what I love. I see it as marketing therapy for therapists.
Carrie Wiita [00:44:41]:
The work that I do and the BBS and all of the professional organizations, the ones that grant CES and stuff, they are so, like, marketing is not clinical. So I can be like, it's marketing for therapy. But see, I don't need a license because you say marketing is not so, but I think it is.
Ben Fineman [00:45:04]:
Well said.
Carrie Wiita [00:45:05]:
Thanks, Ben.
Ben Fineman [00:45:07]:
Thank you, Ben.
Carrie Wiita [00:45:08]:
I don't want to end this. I don't want to end the episode. I'm going to start crying.
Ben Fineman [00:45:12]:
Well, we're at the 50 minutes mark.
Carrie Wiita [00:45:16]:
Watching the clock. Always watching the clock.
Ben Fineman [00:45:20]:
It's been a pleasure. Thanks, everybody.
Carrie Wiita [00:45:23]:
Bye. Thank you for listening to very Bad Therapy. The views and opinions expressed do not constitute therapeutic or legal advice, nor do they represent any entity other than ourselves or our guests.
Ben Fineman [00:45:40]:
Visit us@verybadtherapy.com for more content, ways to support the podcast or to let us know if you have a story you'd like to share on the show. If you'd like to join our Patreon community and get access us to our monthly bonus episodes, check us out@patreon.com. Verybadtherapy bye.
